how many lumens do I really need?

hey guys, I've been reading this forum in the last few days with alot of interest. I discovered this forum via bladeforums. I have a SF e2 right now and its running at 60 lumens. I have read other posts that 85 lumens is not really a big jump.

My question is, for military applications for searching vehicles and tactical applications, what is the acceptable lumen level for performance?

I have read the sticky regarding lights suitable for Iraq, and I havent really read anything regarding acceptable lumen levels.

Thanks

Hi Stevenkim,

Welcome to CPF - hope you enjoy your stay!

Concerning the E2e, it has been found to give 85 lumens with fresh batteries (SureFire are conservative with their lumen output ratings). If buying another brand of flashlight, you would need to get one over 100 lumens to see any real difference...

You asked:

My question is, for military applications for searching vehicles and tactical applications, what is the acceptable lumen level for performance?

I will answer your question as best I can, as each situation is different. I would say you would need the SureFire M6 with the 250 lument bulb (a real 300 lumens) which is usefully bright, lasts well without dimming and gives a lovely beam. The M6 does take 6 batteries at a time though,so it is worth buying a few at a time.

Hope I have helped a little,

Ian, UK

How many lumens do you really need?

One word: MAXIMUM!

First of all, welcome to CPF! Also, it's commendable that you read the sticky about deployment lights before you started this thread.

You will likely get many helpful suggestions here. I think Soundbox's suggestion of the M6 was sincere, but the fact remains that it's also absurd. The M6 is way overkill for the application you've outlined. No offense intended SB, but that light is far too powerful for searching vehicles.

It will, however, throw very far. It's up to you if you're willing to carry something that bulky and heavy that will be rarely used. Also, if it gets lost, you're out quite a chunk of change.

I suggest two lights for you, since it appears that you will be doing some kind of security outpost/MP type of duty. The 4xAA Streamlight PP Luxeon for general vehicle searching work. Actually, even this light may be too bright for this job after nightfall, but it's the best compromise of many different characteristics and will also illuminate dark vehicle crevices if conducting searches during the daytime. They're waterproof, impact resistant, and cheap. Lots of performance for the price. Buy two so you'll be prepared in the event of loss or breakage. They are available in yellow and black.

The second, is a long range throw light for what you called "tactical operations" and I recommend the Streamlight TL-3 Tactical Xenon. I needn't reiterate the characteristics of these lights to you when you can read about them here. Read some of the other reviews on comparable lights and decide for yourself if the recommendations I've made are sound. Actually, I think you could get by with just the PP 4xAA, but you didn't state a budget.

This may sound like a Streamlight plug, but I just happen to think that these two lights will work well for your particular duty. The only Streamlight product I've ever owned is the PP Lux.

Please stay alert and come home safely. I appreciate your service.

OddBall said:

How many lumens do you really need?

One word: MAXIMUM!

Click to expand...

amen brother

I was hesitant to buy my M4, but I'm glad i did
the throw on this thing is godly

SK, I apologize, somehow I forgot your mention of already owning an E2e while I was typing that post.

I don't have one, but they are great lights. I think you'd be fine just using the Surefire, especially if you're getting free batteries. If that's the case, enjoy that SF beam quality!
(And bring some spare bulbs.)

If you have to buy your own batteries, I think my recommendation of the SL 4xAA Lux speaks for itself.

Lastly, there really is no definitive answer to your lumen question. Mostly because Surefire is the only company that can be trusted to advertise even semi-reliable numbers. Quickbeam's excellent review page, (the link I posted), also contains output charts. These are a much more useful benchmark than the lumen numbers that flashlight manufacturer's advertise.

Anyway, your E2e is plenty bright enough for the duties that you've outlined. There may be situations when you wish for more thow, but they will likely be infrequent.

150 lumens would be a really nice amount.

Any more than that and it starts to be a liability at night -- you basically blind yourself. With less you run the risk of not having enough light in some situations.

I just got a new SureFire M3 the other day, so I had to try it out. I was outside of a building on the sunny side in the middle of the day, pretty bright at the door. I went in the building and left the lights off to try my new light. The 125 lumens put out by the "dim" bulb were less than I wanted for seeing into the dark rooms with sunlight-dazzled eyes. It worked, but I would not have wanted less, especially if I was a law enforcement officer or soldier.

Scott

For searching a vehicle, on a regular basis, I would recommend something like a Surefire 8NX, it's rechargeable, comes with mains and vehicle charger adapters, and puts out 110 lumens. I have one with a total of 5 B90 battery sticks, each lasting about 45-50 minutes.

If you don't like the idea of rechargeables, something like the Surefire G2, 60 lumens for an hour.

You can get an extender piece for several surefires, allowing the use of 3 cells, and this allows you to use either the P90 or P91 lamp, giving either 105 or 200 lumens.

If you want absolute power, at low cost, then something like the Cyclops Thor 10,000,000 CP lamp is good, but not as portable as a surefire.

Non-military opinion here, but I find 60 lumens on the low end for what you are asking. I prefer SF lights rated at 100-125 lumens for most applications. Too much more is sometimes overkill, though I like lights with the option of a HOLA.

i think there is some confusion

clearing a vehicle, and searching a vehicle for little things, are two completely different things


to clear a vehicle, i'd want something real bright
i'd want to be able to see what anyone inside the car is doing
but for searching a vehicle, your e2e should be fine

This is truly an excellent question!

On the other hand, if I were in the vehicle that you intended to search, I would want to have a SF M6 !!!

:devil:

Although pricey, the SF M6 with a LOLA would be my choice

Will

I don't see how military searching a vehicle would have different requirements from civilian cops searching a vehicle. So I'd want the same lights that cops use, e.g. Polystingers which are about 60 lumens.

Steven,
Searching a vehicle depends how big the interior spans, if you inspect trucks, small cars and closeup in the trunk etc. You will be doing this with ambient street lighting, spot lights around or in complete darkness. This requires a lot of different levels of light to do it without blinding yourself or creating a target. Always shoot at the brightest light sort of thinking.
The only light I can think of that would fulfull 80 to 90% of your needs is an adjustable output light. The HDS Ultimate 85GT would be perfect since it can be programmed to whatever levels you desire. Always a click or two away from 85 lumens to light up a truck bed but dimmable to check a trunk, look under the chassis or scanning a trunk. Using enough light to see but not lighting up the landscape to become the brightest target is generally a good idea in a war zone. If you get one, try to get a 2xCR123A body (are they available?) Another option is the Surefire U2 although it throws more of a flood and will scatter the light illuminating you!
Get a high powered incandescent in case you need monster throw, the Surefire rechargables can be recharged in a vehicle or by plug in. If you have "your own vehicle" mount the charger in the beast to keep the light ready to go.
The military (DARPA) has designed a special flashlight in co-operation with Surefire. It uses an adjustable level Luxeon V (think U2) the reflector looks deeper and it has something like 12 or 15 regular LEDs with different colors depending on your needs. Get one of those if you can although I don't think they are available at this time. An HDS Ultimate 85 or Surefire U2 adjustable output lights are available now although they cost serious $$$.
Good luck, keep your head low and don't be the brightest target in the bunch. Keep us posted on your progress and welcome to CPF!

Thanks for the replies everyone! I did spend some time researching and initally liked the SF line. The HDS EDCs looked sweet, except it was really expensive. The M6 is a monster!

I really liked the U2, except it seemed too big for EDC with the rest of my equipment and a big no no was the lack of the lanyard hole. Great options with the various outputs though.

I also liked the SF L2, since it was variable as well, I have the option of extended time with a lesser output, and it had a lanyard AND had a good size to it.

However what i really want is a relatively good carry size, with a variable output so that I can produce blinding light, but at the same time switch to a lower light output that has LONG battery life. BentHeadTX hit it on the head with that one. Except I cant find stats on battery life for the 85 model.

Hello,

Let me start by saying that I am neither in the military, nor am I a law enforcement officer; but a few of my lights have seen service in Iraq and quite a few of them are in the hands of law enforcement officers. Based on this, I can make a few comments based on what I've been told.

I'll first start by saying that Surefire lights are, IMHO, the best commercially available lights that you can get. They are tough and pretty much fool proof.

With regard to your needs, I would first ask a couple of questions. This first being, what sort of batteries will you have access to? Will 123 lithium cells be readily available? The other thing that I would want to know is whether spare lamp assemblies would be available to you.

I'd also like to comment about the incandescent lights. They can get bright, but the incandescent lamps are delicate. Simply dropping or bumping the light can cause the bulb to blow. Even the Surefire lights with the shock isolated bezels are not immune. The shock isolated bezels are designed to help the light tolerate the shock of firearms recoil, but the isolation does little to help with lateral impacts. I know this from bumping around in the woods with my M3.

Another comment I'd like to make is regarding throw. Lumens do not equal throw. If you want to get a relative idea of a light's ability to throw, you should see if you can get a lux rating on the light that you are interested in and compare that to the lux rating of others.

At this point, I do have to admit that I am partial to regulated LED lights. These lights have the advantage of constant output (the light doesn't dim as the batteries drain) and the LEDs themselves are VERY shock resistant. Odds are that you'll never need to replace a bulb.

As I mentioned above, I have quite a few lights in service in the hands of law enforcement officers. Many of them are probation and parole officers who do alot of night raids in apartments that are not in the nicest of neighborhoods and usually contain many more people that they were designed to. When conducting these raids, the officers are clearing and searching these residences. All of the lights that I've supplied to these guys have been LED lights running at 1A. What they've had to say about these lights is that they are very carefree, because they don't have worry about replacing bulbs. They've also commented about the long runtimes at full brightness. I also haven't had any one of these lights come back because it quit working.

Based on you requirements, I'd recommend something like an Aleph III light running a T bin or better Luxeon III. At a bias of about 1A, you'll get over 1.5 hours of regulated runtime with the benefit of having two stages of light. Full power and a reduced output mode. The Aleph III puts out a nice size beam up close, which should be sufficient for searching a vehicle. As for throw, I have a friend that uses a similarly setup Aleph III to check a plot 200 paces from his hunting stand in the pitch dark with the use of binoculars. The only downside to the Aleph III is that it takes lithium 123s. If these are available to you, then that won't be a problem.

Steven,
I recall the 85 has a 20 minute runtime at 85 lumens, yeah... not very long at all but 85 lumens from a single CR123A battery is pretty amazing! This is why I brought up the two CR123A body...little longer but an hour runtime at 85 lumens.
Anyone out there actually smoke a battery testing the runtime?

When I go back to the desert, my adjustable output light is rather large (understatement!) A 2D Mag loaded with 8 rechargable AA batteries feeding a 170 lumen (at LED) LuxeonV LED with eight output levels available. Runtime of 3+ hours on high and days at low levels. Remove the head and I have a flood light for working on things (I work on medical equipment) Since I don't carry a firearm (medic thing) I'll blind them, smack 'em upside the head then stab them with my Gerber double-edged combat folder.

Do me a favor, if I go back this year... may I never see a patient in the CT scan room wearing an HDS Ultimate 85. Be careful and have someone watch your back.

I recommend the Inova T4 Luxeon Rechargable light. It spews 100 lumins in a fairly tight beam with little but adequate side-spill. It comes with rechargable light-weight Li-Ion batteries that never need to be removed from the flashlight. Drop the light into its charger cradle that accepts both AC adapter and DC cigarette lighter plug, and the Inova T4 is always charged and ready for action. 2 hour runtime at full brightness, charges fully in about 3 hours.

Looks like I may have to purchase more than one light and adjust fire as necessary. I used my e1 with a red filter with much success on night land nav, its like having a redspotlight. Almost doesnt seem fair to my buddies, they're still stuck with the standard 6 dollar bent head flashlights!

BentHeadTX,

thanks for your words, I know I'll have many fine individuals watching my back downrange. I didnt realize that HDS made a 2 CR123A battery body!

123As shouldnt be a problem in getting them.

CHOP, I agree with you, LED seems to be the way to go as well for my mainlight. I USE my equipment without babying it. I dont like the idea of carrying spare lamp assemblies and chargers. Although necessity may dictate otherwise.