The Politics of Lights - Legend LX and SureFire E2

I haven't chosen to call this Legend LX VERSUS SureFire E2.

I was surprised to find that there was such resentment towards SureFire from some people on the board. All it took to show it was a Legend ......

I am a SureFirer, that is, a convinced enthusiast of SF products. Yes, they are expensive, and even so they have their quirks, and some limitations. (But the limitations are clearly stated.)

Using Lithiums is not cheap. But the LX uses Lithiums too ......

However, to compare the $20 LX versus the $56 E2 is unfair and very optimistic – All you have to do is try to compare them.

The E2 is relatively expensive, the LX is relatively cheap, and it shows in both lights. You do tend to get what you pay for.

(It seems to me like CPF recently went through a "Collective Hysteria" about the LX.) (Which does show that we are a community, I suppose.)

What are the prices of other 2-cell Lithiums, I really don't know ? Is that why everyone went searching everywhere for it, because it's a price breakthrough ?

My LX beam is OK, not perfect. I'd say its beam quality is equal to a badly adjusted SF P60 lamp.
I actually have such a P60 - it happens sometimes - and I know that SF Customer Service would replace it, if I bothered to complain about it. But it's still good, just not what you'd expect from SureFire.

Both my LX and my dodgy P60 are definitely workable in *real life*, but they don't pass the *white wall* test for beam purity.

Long ago, I thought that the lack of focusability in the SF range was a strange omission. But the truly amazing and practical balance between central accent and surround in the E2's MN03 made me realise that it wasn't really such an advantage. The LX is cute in that it can focus reasonably well, but it always introduces some flaws in the beam. Which isn't what I personally want. Once I set it to the optimum focus, I leave it that way - until I have to re-focus it because it's moved itself somehow.

The LX is noticeably brighter than an E2 with the 60 Lu MN03, but the trade-off there is less runtime, and of course, lesser beam purity.

The build quality of the LX is not comparable to the E2 at all. No way. (Don't make me laugh, please.) I use mine without the rubber grip, and for that, I had to smooth out the sharp edges of the exposed body. The rest of the torch isn't built much better, you can see that much expense has been spared.

Over on the SFDB, I've posted frequently that I would love to see a less expensive range of SureFires, so that more people can buy without blanching at the cost. Owning the LX has made me think twice about that. I still believe that SF's are "generously" engineered, but - how would they produce a SureFire *Minor* ? If it were anything like the LX, then it wouldn't be able to carry the SF name.

On the scale of both lights, the LX is considerably bigger at the business end. I regard a Mag 2AA kind of size to be OK for everywhere carry, but the large bezel removes the LX from that consideration. (Saying that, I would use the SF M3 as an everywhere torch, but that's a different animal to these two. And I don't have one (yet), so it's academic ...... )

The LX's heavy switch button is OK for me, but it's been rejected because it's too difficult, by a couple of friends who wanted to borrow a torch. On mine, the plastic guides for the switch spring have already broken off - hope that doesn't affect the use of it. But if they're unnecessary, why are they there - anyone know ?
(The LX's switch has misbehaved on one occasion, actually.)

Is Brinkmann service is equal to SureFires bountifully interpreted "If it breaks, we fix it" warranty, and do they promise ongoing support for old models ? I don't think that Brinkmann are set up that way.

All in all a useful $20 light, nice reflector, and it does light up an area. Otherwise, the Legend is no big deal.

lightlover $ $ $ $ $

This LX light was for a glovebox in one of my cars, so it didn't need to be an engineering marvel. So it's no Surefire, but 'ya gotta admit there's a lotta performance there for a measly $20US. (Great value-IMO)
BTW-the beam on mine only has very tiny flaws and after using it quite a bit, I've had no mechanical malfunctions whatsoever. Remember, S.R.,-it didn't cost 50+bucks

I don't think anyone would really think is reasonable to make a direct comparison between a $55 dollar SureFire, and a $20 Legend LX. Of course the SF has better manufacturing standards. But the fact remains that the Legend LX represents an outstanding value in a 6 volt lithium powered flashlight. Mine works perfectly; I like the stiff switch: it is exrtremely unlikely to get turned on accidently in my jacket pocket. The beam is almost as good
as a SF 6P. At the price, I can use and abuse it, and if I damage or lose it, I won't be too upset. I can't say that for any of my Surefire flashlights! I like having a $20 flashlight that puts out as much light as a SF 6P, that I can carry in a jacket pocket. It's already accumulated some pretty good scratches from my car keys, but I certainly don't care. I wouldn't carry my SF E2 in my jacket pocket, and that gives the Legend LX an advantage over the SF E2. No, the Legend LX isn't perfect, but at $20, it does a *great* job.

My thought is that there is a bit of a 'class war' with different brands of lights. I have seen it with all of my hobbies: knives, guns, lights. There is the most expensive end of the spectrum, for which there are always people willing to pay the premium, and then there is the less expensive end, where it it possible to get a lot for your money. I personally feel there is room for both types, but there are the extreme enthusiasts of both ends of the spectrum, who sometimes resent the others.
For example, I am sure there are people who see the SF junkies as 'light snobs' who must have tons of money to burn. I'm also sure some SF fans feel like the LX is the cheap imposter who is benefitting from the groundwork laid by the Li flashlight pioneers.

I could understand why SFers believe SFs are greatest light ever built. I also understand that why some flashaholics like other light as well. I don't understand quite well that why some SFer try to recommend SF into area the light wasn't designed for or even perform badly. Yes, Millium series is waterproof but I won't recommend it to a diver while they could get a better diving light at lower cost. Some SFers might even say, the main reason why the diver doesn't use a SF because they think that SF is too expensive. In fact, there's nothing to do with the price. It's simply that SF is not the best for such situation and wasn't designed for.

If someone is looking for a tactical light and think that LX is better choice, I could understand why SFer will jump up and shoot them. However, if some one is looking for utility light or glove compartment light, I think LX, E2, P6, G2 or Scorpion will do good. When all of them serve the purpose greatly, users might consider its purchase cost and operation cost (light bulb replacement). I don't see anything wrong if someone pick LX. I don't see why this would make a SFer unhappy.

Besides, people (even flashaholics) has difference preference.
I love HA and all my Sure Fires are in HA except 10X. A friend of mine asked me a lot of questions - what's big deal if the body got scratched? does it hurt its light beam? Have you ever heard something called stone-washed Jeans or even torn jeans with holes all over? Hmm... I don't know what to answer:-(

Alan

I have many lights from many manufacturers, but I choose to carry those lights which best fulfill my needs, regardless of who makes them.

I think the LX represents excellent value, but I've rejected it for EDC for three reasons:

1) I find that stiff clickie a serious impediment

2)When you need a bright light for a sudden, unexpected occurance, you cannot count on a focusable light to be properly aligned (the one exception being the Asp Taclite which has a unique internal focus/setting mechanism).

3)The large diameter head/bezel makes the LX bulky and cumbersome, even though it's only a 2x 123 light.

I no longer carry my E2. It isn't remotely as bright as my (more tightly focussed) Asp, and it has less than 1/3rd the runtime of my 2L, (which is backed up by my 5hr+ Inova x5).

All this discussion boils down to personal preference based on one or any of these three basic factors:
1) Need/function
2) Aesthetics
3) Price

We're all looking for that Holy Grail of flashlights: Very small, bright as H**l, and runs forever. Since it doesn't exist (yet), everything else is a compromise, which is what all these discussions are about.

Best regards,
Brightnorm

I REALLY like the LX, but I don't have any SFs to compare it to...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I swear it must unfocus itself just standing on it's bezel?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends on how hard you set it down. The bulb may be working it's way out, causing it to lose it's focus... See if it needs to be re-seated (just for fun).

I think Brightnorm has articulated the arguement very well and the point is whatever you like goes!

I Know someone who owns a Bently and it is a great car but I wouldn't want it as a gift (well..perhaps if it was a gift)because (a) I couldn't afford to run it and (b) It's just not my type of car!

The same goes for flashlights, a lot of people would probably want a 10x but cant afford it. These people own whatever they can afford and find acceptable for their own particular purposes and I think we should try to avoid the issues of 'haves and have nots' and the inherrant snobbery that can bog down a great discussion board!

Doug

Good discussion guys. No name calling, or anything. I'm so proud. snif.



I STILL can't add any relevant comments, since I don't own any of these lights (yet). But it may gladden some of you that I FINALLY ordered my first "real" incandscent light - a SF E2 in HA. Yay me.

William at Texas Tactical had one left when I called. So, having no willpower at all, I bought the dang thing. Next I go 2L shopping. Then we'll see about the LX.

I like the way Alan put it, "utility" light. I am definitely a utility kinda guy and the LX seems extremely practical, being a great value with such good performance. I have a 9P and don't use it nearly as much as my Legend, but it does stay where my hand can reach it in the middle of the night .
just my .02
waumpuscat

LX... Practical?
Practically useless for carrying on you!

It's got a HUGE Bezel that means you can't put it in your trouser pocket.
It ain't got a PocketClip so you can't clip it to your pocket or belt.
Where are the pouches for it?
It's got a rubber grip to help you activate the click (loud) switch. This grips on your clothes and means if you manage to put it in your trouser pocket, you have trouble getting it out.

It's got a nasty lens that I can scratch just by looking at it...

Jahn, Listen up. I'd grab a MagLite before I grab the LX (if no other brands were available)

Cost has never been an issue for me.
Practical design - SureFires are meant to be used.

The LX is as big and heavier then the M2 but has none of the practicality or features. It has a beam that was designed to be out of focus
That's the biggest reason why I didn't buy a Scorpion...

Al

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Size15s:
LX... Practical?
Practically useless for carrying on you!

It's got a HUGE Bezel that means you can't put it in your trouser pocket.
It ain't got a PocketClip so you can't clip it to your pocket or belt.
Where are the pouches for it?
It's got a rubber grip to help you activate the click (loud) switch. Al<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huge bezel but you'd rather have a maglite? As for the pouches, look here http://www.ripoffs.com/flashlights.htm
As for the loud switch...are you running it through a Marshall stack?

Originally posted by Tesla:
Huge bezel but you'd rather have a maglite? As for the pouches, look here http://www.ripoffs.com/flashlights.htm
As for the loud switch...are you running it through a Marshall stack?
**************
I gave one for a Christmas present along with a 6" Nylon knife sheath I got for 99 cents. It worked very well. It needed to have the flap extended about an inch. I did this with a piece of velcro (it had a velcro closure) as an extension. Very usuable for not much money. TX

I put the LX on my torch shelf after a tidyup, inventory and general sorting out, and a couple days since, the SureFires are either on me, in my rucksack, on my bedsidetable, by the backdoor etc etc.

The LX has somehow managed to sneak behind the ProLite 4C and the MityLight Magnum 2AA - both of which have dust on them and are sans alks cos I don't want leaks...

I can't see the LX ever being carried on me or used. I swear it must unfocus itself just standing on it's bezel?

Anyways, I'm known as a MagLite freak of the highest order so you'd expect such comments from me.

Al

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Size15s:

It's got a nasty lens that I can scratch just by looking at it...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That bad?

Alan

I guess "practical" is a relative term, but it seems to work pretty well for a glove box torch. I gotta admit that I am quite protective of the lense.

Ok guys...(and maybe a gal or 2?)
One thing is nice about this life-"you pays your money and you takes your choice". Comparing MAG to SF is like comparing my 'Vette to a Lamborghini -Just get whatcha like, and enjoy the ride!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vcal:
Ok guys...(and maybe a gal or 2?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speaking of the politics of lights, how about the preferences by gender? It seems that nearly everyone here, if not all, are male. There may or not be any female members, but do flashlights have no appeal to the ladies?

While manufactures have been targeting specific groups, such as some targeting of those with a tactical need, and some targeting general consumers, have they ignored half the population, and lost the dollars of the ones with the REAL money to spend?

Are there any lady members?

It's very interesting to see a the comments made regarding SF. At one point, I was going to pickup an E2. But, something stopped me! It had to do with the run time (60 - 90 minutes tops). I know many people have boasted about the police, rescue, and security people using it. I did lots of asking and found that not many, but a number of these people had SFs. Guess what, when they showed it to me, the batteries were either dead or not installed. Some of them had a broken filament in the bulb (could have broken after a fall). These people did not that their light was in need of attention as they have not used it for a while (months to years). The biggest reason they owned this light as the hype they encountered when they first joined their ranks. Many of the magazines boast these lights. To look good for the part, they purchased one.

After their purchase, most of them were not impressed by the beam power. They all thought it had far more power than the largest mag. Granted, it had a better beam quality, but it produced a small beam and only brighter than a mag. They were expecting something way brighter. They laughed when they saw CSI using these lights as they could not remember anyone in the field using these (not even the FBI). The biggest gripe, 90 minutes max run time is just too short to be useful. For the ones with working SFs, they carry these mainly as a status symbol.

These are just my findings by talking to security, police, fire, rescue, military police, state police, and harbor patrol staff. It came out to about 1 in 10 of these people owned SFs. Most of the rest did think much about them. They were stunned that many people were creating a hype about them and they told me that they would reconsider them if SF could get the run time to well over 5 hours and not have to change bulbs that often. Also, they really didn't like dropping the light and having it burn out so quickly.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WarrenI:
... I did lots of asking and found that not many, but a number of these [police, rescue, and security] people had SFs. Guess what, when they showed it to me, the batteries were either dead or not installed. Some of them had a broken filament in the bulb (could have broken after a fall). These people did not that their light was in need of attention as they have not used it for a while (months to years). The biggest reason they owned this light as the hype they encountered ... To look good for the part, they purchased one.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I suppose a disadvantage of Surefires is that they do need batteries and viable Lamp Assemblies to work.
Do those "police, rescue, and security" people know that ......
But then, Mag-Lites and Streamlights are the same, too ......

I grant that the SF adverts and some articles may seem like hype: I initially thought so too. I changed my mind after a 5 second demo of a SF beam. But I certainly wouldn't take much notice of the perceptions of operatives who trouble to carry expensive, but non-working torches. If they don't use them for months or years, why bother to hold on to them ? To "look good for the part" - a role in Police Academy IX, perhaps.

Do they have any complaints about the other tools that they have to use in the course of their duties, sharps or firearms - I hope they clean and maintain them. Nothing like a rusty gun with no bullets to deter a bad guy.

So if they thought that the SF's had a better beam quality, and more power than the biggest Mag, (at a fraction of the size), but were still not impressed, what do they actually use ? What torches did they find to meet their "security, police, fire, rescue, military police, state police, and harbor patrol" needs. Did they say ? Although I don't really want to copy their approach.

The laughable people in CSI are actors. It's beyond shadow of doubt that many SWAT and Elite Forces units use SureFires. In the field. Actively. That is the market sector SF serve.
Probably many other units use other makes of lighting equipment, and are quite happy with them. Torches, like many other things, are subject to comparison with other options.

Wow, if they "don't like dropping the light", which are the undroppable torches ?

The burntime of SF LA's is comparable to other manufacturers high-output lamps, I believe.

Please comment, WarrenI.

sincerely,

lightlover

(Cross-linked to a post in Topic: Thoughts about Surefire @ http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=001163&p=2 )