How effective are torches against aggressive dogs ?

Went for a walk in the new snow last night in our local park, a couple of largish dogs approached us, I shone my quite bright 49 led torch at them (49 leds on) , from a foot or so away as they approached, didn't seem to have much effect.

One seemed to look away a bit, but wasn't distressed, as perhaps a human would be.

They were called away ok by owner.

Any suggestions, apart from a brighter torch / Gladius.

What are your experiences, perhaps from people who own dogs.

PS: I gather if a dog has you pinned down and is biting you, sticking a finger / torch up it's backside distracts it, again, anyone experience this. How effective is it ?

Even 800 lumens in the face of my landlord's German Shepherd does not bother him in the least. The only thing that would REALLY bother a determined dog would be pepper spray or some other real force option. Despite what some here on the forum think, a bright light all by itself is NOT a defensive "weapon". In conjunction with other tools, it can be quite helpful and effective. But all by itself? Nah. Not really. It might buy you enough time (with a human--not a dog) to run, run away. But that's all.

js said:

Even 800 lumens in the face of my landlord's German Shepherd does not bother him in the least. Despite what some here on the forum think, a bright light all by itself is NOT a defensive "weapon".

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I thought as much, appreciated

I think the cold metal of a 4D mag would be enough...

You would be surprised at just how tough an animal is, pet or wild. People are babies compared to even a normally lazy, but determined dog.

Depends on the dog I think. I've used them to shut up fenced-in barking dogs as I have walked passed peoples yards but have yet to use one on a potential dog attack. I'm inclined to think the dog isn't going to care if its intent is to harm you. All the more reason I keep my hand on a one-handed pocket knife if things get ugly.

Dave

From someone who had used a SL35, and Mark lV pepper spray on dogs. They love the pepper spray, and the light shows them where to lick.

If you are going to carry a spray for animals, find one that is used for that. I would think that foam over spray would add some benefit in the blinding abilities.

PS: I gather if a dog has you pinned down and is biting you, sticking a finger / torch up it's

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WAAAAHHHH!!
Did You personally do something like that?
I always wonder if the posters of urban legends like this, have ever seen the animal they are referring to, from very very far away.

When walking around whith the last 2 our family dogs, I several times had to push/kick other dogs away. There were no great risks for any of them, as they were a German Shepard and then a German Longhair and the attackers where similar sized, but our dogs would have let themselves bitten to deat, they were just too nice.
However, dogs are moving this fast, that hitting their so said "weak points", is not that easy, as many ppl. tell You it is. In fact, even as I was totally ignored and the other dog war realtively stable because biting around the neck of mine, I would only give 50 % of my kicks and punches to just hit it, at least 10 % to hit where I wanted.
Even then several good hits were needed to show any effect on the dog,
as posted above: "You would be surprised how tough an animal is".

Also watch a dog cracking bones; one real bite ot an arm sized bone and it is broken. Grant me, if a dog is ATTACKING You and already bites, there is nothing to do, than using Your arms and hands as targets to drive the dog away from vital points.
The usual encounter is just the "I am stronger than You"-little-bite, and if our skin would be stronger, than that would not be anything more than some pain.

I use my sister's dog as an organic light meter, when comparing flashlights or checking how much life is left in the batteries.

I find it takes a lot to make him react. I expect dog's eyes react to very differently to different frequencies of light compared to humans. I remember reading a rumour that dogs see in black-and-white somewhere, but how anyone can prove this is beyond me!

Anyway, for the lurcher breed, here is the conversion data:

Disinterested: <500 lumens
Moderate interest: 500 lumens (e.g. SF M6 HOLA)
Blinking: ~800 lumens (e.g. cheap "1 million candlepower" thing)
Turning away: > 1000 lumens (e.g. car headlight)

I know this isn't accurate - you need to take into account the intensity of the beam, as well. Perhaps this is where Candlepower comes into it's own. I'll try to get that data, in case it's of any use.

It may be illegal and/or it may not work against a dog but i carry a can of "Hornet-Wasp" spray.

I've some experience here and can emphatically say that if a large dog is intent on attacking you a flashlight is absolutely useless (unless used as an impact weapon!).

Dogs use three senses to attack you, one is sight, one smell and one is hearing. A dog's senses are considerably better than ours. As the animal is usually making a lunge at you (it's using its kinetic energy to its full advatage) it has already lost some of its cognitive functions. It will have been programmed by nature to endure damage and injury to enable it to survive better in a conflict and won't now be feeling pain as it normally might. (To illustrate this dogs were pitted against each other in the fighting ring but they continued to fight until one of them lay dead. In doing so they often sustained mortal injuries but didn't break off the fight until they had won) In aggression a dog reverts back to its primeval state and will usually keep an attack up until the victim is dead or completely submissive.

In the scenario that a large dog attacks you a flashlight will deny the dog its sight but it will still be able to locate you just as easily by smell and hearing. As the effect of a flashlight wont permanently deprive the dog of its vision for more than a few seconds then it is merely an inconvenience to the dog rather than anything else. Remember also that the dog will by instinct go for your face and throat (as this would allow it the quickest way of disabling you) and if you use your hands and arms as protection then the dog will simply bite these limbs whilst trying to get to your face.

I think it is important to remember that most dogs are, like us, trying to avoid a conflict which might cause them injury. An attack will normally occur only if we do something which the dog perceives as threatening it or its territory. If we intrude into its home or garden then it will probably attack. If it is loose then unless we try to contain it or stop it from going where it wants it usually wont attack us. The difficulty occurs if we are engaged in an activity which attracks it. Running or riding a bike is a typical situation where the dog sees a potential victim trying to escape from it and will therefore be programmed to chase the victim.

In essence the only sensible way of avoiding a dog which is intent on attacking you (as opposed to being friendly or curious) is to deprive it of at least two of its sensenses. For this type of situation a pepper spray is usually more than enough. The spray will deprive the animal of both its visual and olfactory senses and will inevitably lead the dog to breaking off the attack. Providing you are not disabled by a bite you will be able to escape from the animal which will no longer be trying to hurt/kill you.

Of course here in the UK we are up a gum tree! Due to the legislation over here pepper and mace sprays are illegal and we have to rely on the fact that most dogs which could potentially attack us are physically too small to cause life treatening injuries. However dog bites are and can be serious and can cause lead to all sorts of problems.

If the above post seems too long I hope that it may have imparted on you the fact that dogs can't be put off attacking you by a flashlight. The best they can do is to persuade an overly inquisitive dog that your not worth bothering with.

Doug

dougmccoy said:

I've some experience here and can emphatically say that if a large dog is intent on attacking you a flashlight is absolutely useless (unless used as an impact weapon!).

I hope that it may have imparted on you the fact that dogs can't be put off attacking you by a flashlight. The best they can do is to persuade an overly inquisitive dog that your not worth bothering with.

Doug

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Brilliant and in depth explanation, thanks

Does muzzle flash count as a "torch"? Then I recomment a Ruger SP-101 .357 Mag.
Lots of muzzle flash!

If legal in the UK then I'd happily consider it!....LOL!

Doug

Many dogs won't like being beaned in the head with a big Maglite, Tigerlight (extra OC punch!) or big old Streamlight. I've seen such blows deter a number of dogs, but ANY animal set on making a meal out of you won't be deterred by any less than several bruised/broken bones. In the time it takes you to deal out that kind of damage with a blunt weapon on a small, fast moving animal, you could be mauled a few times over.

In the end, when possible, a barrier is the best defense against an animal. Humans are not as quick on the ground as most dogs (it's possible to outrun some, but most people are either too out-of-shape or overburdened with gear) but we do posess an overall mobility advantage. Dogs can't climb (much,) open doors or gates, or utilize vehicles of any sort. It's not hard to jump over a chain-link fence, even one much taller than you. Residential areas often have fenced-in yards with gates that aren't locked (few homeowners appreciate you using this option, but most won't begrudge you for it under the circumstances.) If you're capable of climbing trees, that tends to work as well.

One option I've thought about is to keep something that can be used to busy the dog's mouth. A stick might be sufficient for buying you a few seconds to follow up with something damaging, for instance. Some beef jerky in a vacuum-sealed wrapper might smell good enough that a dog might want it more than it wants you, and it should last long enough to give you a decent head start (walking, of course.) Additionally, beef jerky is innocuous to the point that there are almost no limitations whatsoever to their carry (ie. don't let anyone see you bringing it to a movie theater.)

After 20 years with the post office I've found dog repellent to be effective on some dogs but not all of them and even the ones it did stop did not send them away yelping. They just kind of stop barking and back off squinting. On aggressive dogs I find a good walking stick to be effective as they don't like to come within striking distance, that being said I have had the odd one attack hard and fast, stick be damned. Thats when batting practice pays off, and keep swinging repeatedly because some take more than one hit to stop them.

My dogs don't seem to be bothered by lights...I have to pull the beams up to keep them from looking into the beam...I think the flaming torch is better for this.

abvidledUK said:

Any suggestions, apart from a brighter torch / Gladius.

What are your experiences, perhaps from people who own dogs.

PS: I gather if a dog has you pinned down and is biting you, sticking a finger / torch up it's backside distracts it, again, anyone experience this. How effective is it ?

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I have a Gladius, and have tried it with my 95-lb German shepherd. You're not going to turn him away with the light, but he doesn't seem to be able to see through the strobe.

So I think you can use the Gladius (or any other suitably bright light) in the same way as with peope: to temporarily deny them the use of their optical guidance systems. Use the light like a matador uses his cape. You won't stop the "charge," but you can use the light to get out of the way if you are agile enough.

As for the rectal tactic, I wouldn't waste the effort. If you are being bitten, grab the dog's windpipe and twist. Dogs won't respond to anything short of baseline life function interference once they attack. You have to deny the dog air or blood circulation to the head, and keep doing that until after the dog has passed out and has actually died. If they pass out and you let go, they will come after you again when brain perfusion returns.

Attacks by large dogs are nothing to screw around with. If all you have is your bare hands, go for the neck and stay on it until one of you is dead.

Scott

On the Surefire stories page, When Animals Attack, there are three stories describing how a flashlight turned away a threatening dog:

• Father's Day Gift...
• 10X Owner...
• Angry Dog's Brakes...

Many years ago, as I was jogging one morning, a woman let her two large dogs out of her house to go to her car. When they saw me--in my fluorescent orange vest--they came bounding at me.

For years, I had planned what I'd do in this situation: Run TOWARD the dog, arms flailing, making loud fierce noises like a monster. Of course, like a handheld device that is supposed to turn you invisible, this tactic would either work or it wouldn't.

It did! They retreated.

When I continued running, they came at me again. Onnce again I went at them like a banshee. Once again they retreated.

After that, I got me a telescoping steel night stick. I no longer own the night stick, but I wouldn't hesitate to try my flailing arm "banshee attack" again.

It's probably also a good idea to remove your belt, wrap it around your hand, and use the buckle end as a stand-off weapon--if you have the time and the presence of mind.

That's funny, Paul...