I am reading the Fellowship of the Ring, since the movie seemed rather indescriptive at times, and I have 2 questions. Where do the Elves go when they leave the harbors of middle earth? I keep reading something about the West. Is it another continent? And why doesnt Tom Bombadil become invisible or tempted at all when he holds and wears the ring?
Question to a LOTR wiz
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drizzle
Enlightened
Off the top of my head...
The elves go to the Grey Havens. It is an island that is closer to the all powerful creator race that are somewhat god-like. I've forgotten the significance of that but it seems to me it is significant. I think by being closer to the god-like ones they somehow have better lives. I forget now. It is detailed in "The Silmarilion". I only recommend you read it if you really want to know this stuff. It is a pretty slow and difficult read, IMO.
Tom Bombadil, I don't know about. I think there's another book about his adventures that I haven't read yet. He doesn't figure into the saga after the one part where they stay with him. As I recall it is never explained what makes him special and why it doesn't affect him. At first I didn't like the fact that he was left out of the movie but in hindsight I can see why. He really doesn't fit into the rest of the world at all.
Another useless fact that I have stored away that came in handy.
The elves go to the Grey Havens. It is an island that is closer to the all powerful creator race that are somewhat god-like. I've forgotten the significance of that but it seems to me it is significant. I think by being closer to the god-like ones they somehow have better lives. I forget now. It is detailed in "The Silmarilion". I only recommend you read it if you really want to know this stuff. It is a pretty slow and difficult read, IMO.
Tom Bombadil, I don't know about. I think there's another book about his adventures that I haven't read yet. He doesn't figure into the saga after the one part where they stay with him. As I recall it is never explained what makes him special and why it doesn't affect him. At first I didn't like the fact that he was left out of the movie but in hindsight I can see why. He really doesn't fit into the rest of the world at all.
Another useless fact that I have stored away that came in handy.
Topper
Flashaholic*
Tom was there when the first acorn formed a tree. Not human the ring held no power over him. At Rivendale they speak of sending the ring back to him as it held no power but was rejected as he would likely forget the importance of keeping up with it. Hey there that's all I recall.
Topper
Topper
drizzle
Enlightened
No kidding! Wow, I completely forgot about that. Especially the discussion in Rivendell. It makes sense for them to speak of it as it seems like a logical thing to do with the ring. I thought I would have remembered that.Topper said:
:mecry:. I was excited when these books were made into good movies but I also lamented that Mags case would become the norm for awhile.
I am a little rusty but I remember a little bit. The Grey Havens is the seaport I guess you could say that is on the western shore of middle earth. This is the location that the remaining elves of middle earth will go to when they are ready to embark on their journey "into the west" as they always say. The Grey Havens however used to be landlocked if I remember the maps correctly back when the Earth (I think they call it Arda) was new and the Elves were still just a twinkle in the Valars eyes.
A huge portion of Middle Earth that used to exist west of the Grey Havens was plunged under the sea long before the LOTR time period. The Valar were the God-like beings that helped create the earth both in a spiritual form and in it's true physical state through music. The Valar dwelt "in the west" from the beginning. I think the land mass across the ocean that is "the west" was called Valinor. The Valar knew that a race would come into being (the elves) but they didn't know where. Eventually as they traveled across Arda they found that the Elves existed in Middle Earth. The Valar were enamored of the Elves and actually allowed some of them to dwell in Valinor with them. Some however stayed in Middle Earth and this is one of the things that separates the different lineages of elves, whether or not they experienced the land of the Valar.
There was evil in the world as well though. He was called Melkor (I think). He sowed discord in the music that created Arda and fell from grace. He was later known as Morgoth and was very bad juju. He was the guy who trained Sauron ala LOTR.
There were some jewels created in Valinor by one of the Houses of the Elves called the silmarils. They became an object of greed and desire. Morgoth eventually stole them and escaped to the part of Middle Earth that is now under the ocean. He set up his stronghold in the North known as Thangorodrim. In their lust for the silmarils some of the Elves desired to leave Valinor and seek out Morgoth to get the silmarils back. Due to some disagreements or something I don't quite remember there was some Elf vs. Elf contention and some Elves were slain at the hands of other Elves. Because of this certain Elves were banished from Valinor and returned to Middle Earth.
There they lived and spread across the land for a long time and toiled against Morgoth in 4 or 5 different wars. Eventually the Elves teamed up with the Valar once again to destroy Morgoth and in doing so earned the right to return to Valinor. I think it was during this conflict that the western part of middle earth sank in the sea. Many Elves had grown to love Middle Earth and did not immediately return. They stayed and dwelt there but they still had their passage into the west they could use at some future date when they had tired of Middle Earth and the goings-on there.
Out of the old Middle Earth there came Men as well, some of whom ended up on the Island of Numenor before returning to souther Middle Earth and establishing Gondor. Some of the notable Elves from the tales of the silmarils who stayed in Middle Earth were Elrond and Galadriel. Also there was Beren, a man, and Luthien, an elf, who were the first Man/Elf union. This is who Aragorn sings about in the extended edition of the movie and who he mentions in the books because it foreshadows his relationship with Arwen. So when the elves go into the west they are returning to a heaven-like realm where they had once lived a long time ago.
Yes I guess you could call me a LOTR nerd. Don't worry I like flashlights too, and fly-fishing and mountain biking so I am really pretty normal. I read the books many times before I even knew the movies were being made and I am glad I did. It is the only real way to experience Tolkien's creation. I find the books absolutely fascinating. I actually found the Silmarillion and Lost Tales to be more fulfilling in some respects than LOTR. They are a little harder read since they are not a continuous narrative but I think any reader of LOTR who enjoyed it should for sure read at least the Silmarillion. It gives all the back story (which I have hugely condensed here) to LOTR. Sorry for the long post. I haven't thought about LOTR for a while actually. I guess it's time for another read.
Daegan
Edit: added paragraphs
A huge portion of Middle Earth that used to exist west of the Grey Havens was plunged under the sea long before the LOTR time period. The Valar were the God-like beings that helped create the earth both in a spiritual form and in it's true physical state through music. The Valar dwelt "in the west" from the beginning. I think the land mass across the ocean that is "the west" was called Valinor. The Valar knew that a race would come into being (the elves) but they didn't know where. Eventually as they traveled across Arda they found that the Elves existed in Middle Earth. The Valar were enamored of the Elves and actually allowed some of them to dwell in Valinor with them. Some however stayed in Middle Earth and this is one of the things that separates the different lineages of elves, whether or not they experienced the land of the Valar.
There was evil in the world as well though. He was called Melkor (I think). He sowed discord in the music that created Arda and fell from grace. He was later known as Morgoth and was very bad juju. He was the guy who trained Sauron ala LOTR.
There were some jewels created in Valinor by one of the Houses of the Elves called the silmarils. They became an object of greed and desire. Morgoth eventually stole them and escaped to the part of Middle Earth that is now under the ocean. He set up his stronghold in the North known as Thangorodrim. In their lust for the silmarils some of the Elves desired to leave Valinor and seek out Morgoth to get the silmarils back. Due to some disagreements or something I don't quite remember there was some Elf vs. Elf contention and some Elves were slain at the hands of other Elves. Because of this certain Elves were banished from Valinor and returned to Middle Earth.
There they lived and spread across the land for a long time and toiled against Morgoth in 4 or 5 different wars. Eventually the Elves teamed up with the Valar once again to destroy Morgoth and in doing so earned the right to return to Valinor. I think it was during this conflict that the western part of middle earth sank in the sea. Many Elves had grown to love Middle Earth and did not immediately return. They stayed and dwelt there but they still had their passage into the west they could use at some future date when they had tired of Middle Earth and the goings-on there.
Out of the old Middle Earth there came Men as well, some of whom ended up on the Island of Numenor before returning to souther Middle Earth and establishing Gondor. Some of the notable Elves from the tales of the silmarils who stayed in Middle Earth were Elrond and Galadriel. Also there was Beren, a man, and Luthien, an elf, who were the first Man/Elf union. This is who Aragorn sings about in the extended edition of the movie and who he mentions in the books because it foreshadows his relationship with Arwen. So when the elves go into the west they are returning to a heaven-like realm where they had once lived a long time ago.
Yes I guess you could call me a LOTR nerd. Don't worry I like flashlights too, and fly-fishing and mountain biking so I am really pretty normal.
I read the books many times before I even knew the movies were being made and I am glad I did. It is the only real way to experience Tolkien's creation. I find the books absolutely fascinating. I actually found the Silmarillion and Lost Tales to be more fulfilling in some respects than LOTR. They are a little harder read since they are not a continuous narrative but I think any reader of LOTR who enjoyed it should for sure read at least the Silmarillion. It gives all the back story (which I have hugely condensed here) to LOTR. Sorry for the long post. I haven't thought about LOTR for a while actually. I guess it's time for another read. Daegan
Edit: added paragraphs
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There is a small book called the Adventures of Tom Bombadill, it is small collection of small poem type stories. It is a fun read. I have had the books for amny many years now with all the maps. It has been a while since I have read them, will have to look through Tolkiens Unfinished Tales, and The Tolkien Companion to se what else there may be on Tom other than what has been told here.
It would seem that no where is it explained what kind of creature Tom is, he is known by various names Iawain Ben-Adar is the oldest name by the Elves. They say he is the oldest of all creatures, a veritable incarnation of the very life force of the forest.
It would seem that no where is it explained what kind of creature Tom is, he is known by various names Iawain Ben-Adar is the oldest name by the Elves. They say he is the oldest of all creatures, a veritable incarnation of the very life force of the forest.
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Size15's
Flashaholic
The Silmarillion was amazing to me because it put the LOTR in a wider context. I then explored the History of Middle-earth series which really expands everything you thought you knew about the universe Tolkien created.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth
Who/What is Tom Bombadil?
http://www.tolkien.cro.net/else/tombom.html
BTW, not all the Elves left Middle-earth.
Look what you've made me do - I've been reading the wealth of texts (Q&A) of theonering.net - I'm going to reading for a few hours now!
(I followed that site everyday from the very beginning - it was more important than CPF before and during the movies!)
Al
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle-earth
Who/What is Tom Bombadil?
http://www.tolkien.cro.net/else/tombom.html
BTW, not all the Elves left Middle-earth.
Look what you've made me do - I've been reading the wealth of texts (Q&A) of theonering.net - I'm going to reading for a few hours now!
(I followed that site everyday from the very beginning - it was more important than CPF before and during the movies!)
Al
I am quite dissapointed with how many parts of the book were removed or changed. How Arwen saved frodo, even though it was some other elf's horse, how the nazgul seemed dumb, and deaf, how Bree was portrayed as a unfriendly town that was supposed to actually be inhabited by hobbits as well, the entire inn scene, exaggeration of Gimlis reaction to finding Balins tomb, it goes on. Why were so many parts changed? I understand adding more would extremely lengthen the movie, and the extended version was long enough.
Mags said:
A sad reality it is Mags. They say "creative license" or "intellectual expression" in the page-to-film evolution.
Some years ago too, I read M. Crichton's "Eaters of the Dead" which became "The 13th Warrior" (2000-2001 I think?) with Antonio Banderas as the lead. The film itself was OK, but because I had read the book beforehand, all I could say after watching it was "WTF?"
Rothrandir
Flashaholic
anyone who has read and enjoyed lotr should do themselves a favor and read the silmarillion.
in reading the books, you will begin to understand the amount of depth and reality to middle earth, but when you read the silmarillion, you will understand that middle earth was a place that might as well have existed. tolkien created an entire universe and history, and the depth and reality of it blows the mind.
reading the silmarillion will make you appreciate the lord of the rings so much more. there is much in lotr that seems to be just normal narration or description, but actually has base in history of middle earth (and not just middle earth the continent, but all of arda).
after reading the silm, when you re-read lotr many things will pop out, and you will have a greater understanding, and a much greater appreciation for lotr, and tolkien in general.
the silm is essentially a collection of smaller stories, all tied together in progression and time, but each of these stories carries so much power and influence. he lay of leithien (of beren and luthien) is i believe the greatest and most powerful story ever told. it is a legendary epic, greater than that of any other literary work i know.
i started to type out a summary here, but stopped, lest it be spoiled by my telling.
it takes up many pages of the silmarillion, but is nowhere near novel length. i live in hope that someday, someone will re-write it in full length, as was done in the story of "isuldur" which was written in great detail by another auther, true to tolkiens work.
as to the questions addressed in the origional post of the thread, the elves do indeed go back to valinor, though it was removed from arda. and tom bombadil is an enigma. tolkien himself claims to not know who and what bombadil exactly is.
the adventures of tom bombadil is essentially a small collection of stories/songs/poems about him, but really have no relevance to the happenings of middle earth. i believe they exist seperately, and on their own.
the true mysteries of tolkiens works are answered here though, and should only be read by those who have at least read lord of the rings (some of them require silmarillion knowlege)
in reading the books, you will begin to understand the amount of depth and reality to middle earth, but when you read the silmarillion, you will understand that middle earth was a place that might as well have existed. tolkien created an entire universe and history, and the depth and reality of it blows the mind.
reading the silmarillion will make you appreciate the lord of the rings so much more. there is much in lotr that seems to be just normal narration or description, but actually has base in history of middle earth (and not just middle earth the continent, but all of arda).
after reading the silm, when you re-read lotr many things will pop out, and you will have a greater understanding, and a much greater appreciation for lotr, and tolkien in general.
the silm is essentially a collection of smaller stories, all tied together in progression and time, but each of these stories carries so much power and influence. he lay of leithien (of beren and luthien) is i believe the greatest and most powerful story ever told. it is a legendary epic, greater than that of any other literary work i know.
i started to type out a summary here, but stopped, lest it be spoiled by my telling.
it takes up many pages of the silmarillion, but is nowhere near novel length. i live in hope that someday, someone will re-write it in full length, as was done in the story of "isuldur" which was written in great detail by another auther, true to tolkiens work.
as to the questions addressed in the origional post of the thread, the elves do indeed go back to valinor, though it was removed from arda. and tom bombadil is an enigma. tolkien himself claims to not know who and what bombadil exactly is.
the adventures of tom bombadil is essentially a small collection of stories/songs/poems about him, but really have no relevance to the happenings of middle earth. i believe they exist seperately, and on their own.
the true mysteries of tolkiens works are answered here though, and should only be read by those who have at least read lord of the rings
(some of them require silmarillion knowlege)Topper
Flashaholic*
Silmarillion, I read it twice and LOTR at least 10 times. I spent many hours reading in the appendix's of The Return of the King. It gives a time line as to what took place after the fact. Good reading there.
Topper
Topper
Size15's
Flashaholic
When I re-read LOTR now-a-days I find myself with the Silmarillion and other works / "reference guides" / maps open - there are so many times when something jogs my memory and I hunt out the back story, or see a name I don't recognise and find myself getting side-tracked for hours reading the related parts of HOME!
mdocod
Flashaholic
Sounds like many here are very *into* the rings.
I wasn't really much made aware of the exsistance of the books, and the huge following, untill mention of the making of the movies made it's way about.
Of cource- I saw the mvoies, because I couldn't resist movies that were cutting edge, in such enourmous scope.
Many of the schenes of these movies, would make anyone stand in awww, wonderment, and joy. The sheer magnitude of the schenes was amazing. I wonder, if perhaps I was able to enjoy them MORE* having not read the books. (nothing to complain about as far as them leaving thigns out, was like watching any other movie)...
My only major grievence- which may or may not have validity:
Epic
Epic
Epic concentrate
Evaporated Epic in a compressed can
Epic^82799876143
Epic with extra pulp made from high concentrate extracts from pure Epic
Epic!!!!!!!!
There comes a point, where th EPICness of a film, can seem overwhelming and hokey, often times, comedy writers try to OVERdo the EPICness of a schene because it makes the schene hilarious. The entire LOTR 9+ hours worth on film, felt right on that borderline. Any more epic and it would have been a comedy instead of an action/adventure/fiction.
Just because you HAVE a helicopter, doesn't mean you should do 400 flyover shots of some people hiking over rocks put to SUPER EPIC MUSIC.
don't get me wrong.... I actually LOVED these movies, and they are in my top 10 of all time favorites, but I have to make a point of watching the films in a serious manner. (thinking in terms of all the serious epicness that was amongst our world during the time these books were being written)....
sorry, rambling, about, nothing, usefull....
I wasn't really much made aware of the exsistance of the books, and the huge following, untill mention of the making of the movies made it's way about.
Of cource- I saw the mvoies, because I couldn't resist movies that were cutting edge, in such enourmous scope.
Many of the schenes of these movies, would make anyone stand in awww, wonderment, and joy. The sheer magnitude of the schenes was amazing. I wonder, if perhaps I was able to enjoy them MORE* having not read the books. (nothing to complain about as far as them leaving thigns out, was like watching any other movie)...
My only major grievence- which may or may not have validity:
Epic
Epic
Epic concentrate
Evaporated Epic in a compressed can
Epic^82799876143
Epic with extra pulp made from high concentrate extracts from pure Epic
Epic!!!!!!!!
There comes a point, where th EPICness of a film, can seem overwhelming and hokey, often times, comedy writers try to OVERdo the EPICness of a schene because it makes the schene hilarious. The entire LOTR 9+ hours worth on film, felt right on that borderline. Any more epic and it would have been a comedy instead of an action/adventure/fiction.
Just because you HAVE a helicopter, doesn't mean you should do 400 flyover shots of some people hiking over rocks put to SUPER EPIC MUSIC.
don't get me wrong.... I actually LOVED these movies, and they are in my top 10 of all time favorites, but I have to make a point of watching the films in a serious manner. (thinking in terms of all the serious epicness that was amongst our world during the time these books were being written)....
sorry, rambling, about, nothing, usefull....
Size15's
Flashaholic
I'm not sure how everybody else feels but we could have another thread on the topic of the LotR's movies and keep this one more book-related okay?
Rothrandir
Flashaholic
i guess we know how al feels about the films...
