Afraid of success.

All my life I have had to work, and this has not been a problem. I enjoy a lot of different jobs, and have been happy during this time.

Most of us aspire to climb up the ladder so to speak, myself included. I guess this push is felt more in Americans that other folks, but that observation/guess isn't critical to where I am going with this little diatribe.

Very recently my wife and I made some financial decisions that left us in new territory. Now we've been through tough times and good times, but this latest change is uncharted. We're changing where we are sending money to and when we are sending it, to describe it in its simplest terms.

You see, this financial move will leave us debt free. I mean 100% abo-so-freakin-lut-ely out. Cars, house, credit card, student loan, medical bills, etc. Nothing, not a cent to anyone. And no, we didn't file bankruptcy!

The strangest part is that I am scared of this. I mean really scared. And yes, I realize how completely stupid that sounds.

This will all take effect in about a month. Between now and then I am obsessed with what I am going to do about it, like it's some problem.

I mean, I've always had some debt to pay on, even if it was a small one. Now, it's like "I've gotten here, so what now?".

I'm so weirded out by this, I'm extremely tempted to go buy my dream car, a 64 cobra reproduction.

At least that will put me back to paying for something on a regular basis.

But, it hit me tonight. Am I afraid of success? Have I achieved it (I've certainly worked hard enough) and don't know what to do with it? Will I lose the ability to relate to friends/family after a while?

As of now, only 2 people know about this, except you guys. And we aren't planning on telling anyone. But my fear now is that it will slip out eventually, and we'll be resented.

I know this sounds like bragging. And I apologize if it comes across that way. But I wanted to get some opinions or comments. And if you feel like letting loose, have at it. I'm a grownup.

Now, we will still have to work. We aren't *that* successful with our money. So we will continue to work and invest. And we, being yuppie suburbanites, tend to spend a good bit on creature comforts (food/entertainment/flashlights).

I liken this to being in prison. I've just been paroled and all I can think of it what I can do to get thrown back inside. Anyone here a sociologist? Or maybe it's like achieving your dieting goals, then going out for pizza every night for a month.

Or, is this a well-deserved little spending spree? The type where we'll buy a few toys and then move on. I mean, we invest, we save a little cash also, and we pay our bills. After all, this is the freedom that we *did* plan toward for ~10 years now. We are diversified in our lives. We volunteer a good bit. I work at the church in my spare time, for free. I've managed to scale back my work (I'm self employed) so I am home more (we have a 2 year old).

I have dreamed of this day for _years_, and I would have never thought it would be like this. Sort of anti-climactic.

:shrug:

Thanks for sharing, as I could learn from this too. In reality, what you're feeling is quite undestandable.

Reminds me of the "samurai" warriors of ancient Japan. They swore undying, eternal and supreme loyalty to their particular liege lords. Every waking time, effort and action was an act dedicated to the protection and glorification of their feudal lords/masters. Thus, what happened was essentially this act or sense of service wasn't just an important part of their lives---it essentially became their lives. Can you imagine what happened then when a particular lord died or says to one of them "I have no longer need of your services?" What happens to them then?

A similar story I also heard somewhere are those of the early moon shot astronauts of NASA, how they made it their mission in life to train to get to the moon succesfully. Having done so and returning to earth, again, they are faced with this humungous uncertainty of "What now?" too.

As with all of us, I think this profound (and even debilitating) sense of change has got you more affected rather than the uncertainty of what comes next afterwards.

But, just my opinion though, THAT'S WHAT MAKES LIFE INTERESTING! Go on! Sure it's uncertain but never let that keep you from living your life.

Congrats on going debt free! Most people never get debt free. It is my dream to be debt free also. I am maybe 5 years away if things go according to plan. I know what your saying when you likened debt to being incarcerated.

You should not feel guilty about reaching this milestone. Your friends and family will not resent you (for this, anyway). They may be a little envious but overall I would think for the most part they would be happy for you and secretly admire you. You will likely be a role model for them and inspire them to also strive toward financial freedom, even though they may not ever admit it. (There are people in my life like this, but I would never tell them that as it would make them uncomfortable.) And when think about, what greater gift is there?

Maybe you should set some new goals for yourself. Like say, never borrowing again. Buy your dream car when you can pay cash for it. The delayed gratifacation on it would be that much sweeter.

Again congrats, you've earned it, now try to relax and enjoy it.

Every day start caring a little less about what other people think of you, it's not a healthy way of living. If you know that you are a good person and do no harm to anybody, why keep living thinking about other people toughts?

Now that you can, better spend more time on things you like to do, or go places you always wanted to visit.

It seems a little less work, will not affect your finances, spend that time on you and your cared ones, in the long run you won't regret it.

I'm the living example of this philosophy


Pablo

We each owe about $27K to the government's creditors because of govt debt created by the past decades of deficits. Think of the federal withholding from your salary checks as a credit card payment for which you aren't getting anything and for which the debt becomes larger every day despite your payments. So you can relax, you'll always be in debt no matter what you do.

http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opdpenny.htm

I'm not quite sure what there is to be afraid of. Being debt free is only one aspect of being "successful", not the only one. I've been down that debt-free road before, paid off the house in 7 years, only to buy another and have another mortgage. You too can do the same thing After five years of servicing that mortgage, I'm on the verge of paying that off too. Getting back to the point I'm trying to make is that you can measure success in many other ways. Are you happy? Do you get up in the morning and feel good, and I mean really good without feeling some sort of unfulfilled emptiness? Do you give back to something? Like donate time and or money to a cause/charity. And feel good about it. Do you have the discipline to maintain your debt-free status? Just some of the things to think about. Being debt free is only one little teeny tiny measure of being successful.

Ah, a new day. The sun is up. And I see some interesting responses to my post.

First, thanks for the kind remarks.

Second, some of my customers are friends also. Maybe it's *them* that I wish to keep this from. I guess I think that they might think my fees are too high.

Most days I do wake up happy, and in a good mood. Sometimes I get a little anxious about cash flow, since we were diverting a huge amount toward debt service. But that will be over now.

I'll sort of sit back and try not to make any major changes right away, and see what develops.

If I pay my share of the national debt do I get a medal?

Is being debt free in the USA a sound fiscal approach? It may be for some, but not for all or perhaps even many. Just because you can afford to pay cash for an expensive item, for example a new car, does it really make sense to do so? Perhaps not if you can earn more on money you would have paid in cash than the low interest loan associated with buying the car over time. Being debt free may be a great feeling; but, it may not be the best way to smartly manage your money.

turbodog said:

Second, some of my customers are friends also. Maybe it's *them* that I wish to keep this from. I guess I think that they might think my fees are too high.

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From one person who's in business for themselves (albeit not as successfully as you) to another the fee you charge your customers is based on the going rate for whatever type of work you're doing. Your personal financial situation is irrelevant. As much as I'd love to charge more than I'm worth now because I could really use the money I can't or my customers will go elsewhere. Likewise, should I become successful to the point that the money is almost unimportant I won't feel obligated to charge less than I'm worth, either. Sure, if the job interests me and the customer could use a break I might even waive my fee entirely in this hypothetical situation, but I certainly wouldn't feel obligated to.

As to your misgivings about not being in debt, I think this has nothing to do with being afraid of success and more with being afraid of having a life with no strings attached. You're obviously not afraid of success or you would have found a way to sabotage yourself from ever achieving it whenever the opportunities presented themselves. I tend to think that your misgivings about not owing out money stem more from a belief that others helped you for your success (i.e. the loans subconsciously represent help from others), and now that you no longer owe out maybe you're beginning to realize that you would have been successful entirely on your own. For whatever reason, this feeling makes you uncomfortable, and you wouldn't be the first person to feel that way. Lots of successful people often have a feeling of guilt if they find when they get to the top there was really no one defining moment or big break from a kind mentor which ultimately led to their success. In short, they want to make reparations of some sort for their succees, but there really isn't anybody there for them to come up to and say "Thanks, I wouldn't be here if not for you.". It seems the loans in a subconsicous way represent this helping hand to you. Now that you no longer need them, or perhaps realize you may have never needed them at all, you might be feeling a sense of guilt.

I think all of this is interesting from my perspective. In that thread I started yesterday I was actually offered money. Granted, not a large sum like the $100K you mentioned a friend of yours would give if you simply asked, but nevertheless it was an offer, and surprisingly by turning it down I found out we're probably more similar than we realize. I would definitely feel funny taking money from an individual without somehow earning it yet I would readily accept "help" in the form of bank loans or any business grants from the government available to anyone else. In a way, this is akin to receiving help without feeling obligated to any one individual, so it would aid me without hurting my pride. I think you felt the same one about your loans. They were a way for you to accept the help you needed while keeping your pride intact, and maybe the fact that you can go it alone now without any help while many you know can't is making you feel guilty.

I'll close by saying you should celebrate your good fortune. If you read my other thread, you'll gather that me and my mom are far from rich yet neither of us owe out a net balance, and neither feel guilty about it. Yes, I do still make monthly payments on a student loan, but this is a very complex situation where the loan went into default, and I agreed to pay $50 a month which barely covers the interest. The reason I never made any attempt to pay the loan up was because I secured employment a few months after it went into default, and if my creditors had simply been a little more patient instead of sending it out for collection I would have made a greater effort to repay it. But they didn't, added attorney fees to what I owed, and ultimately settled on monthly payments of $50, so this is all they're ever going to get from me. I could pay off the loan entirely by cashing in some of my IRAs, but since I'm not legally obligated to pay more than $50 a month, I won't. I did offer some months ago to settle for the original loan amount, less what I paid already, but was refused. However, since my assets exceed my loans I consider myself debt free. My mom recently bought the only new car she ever had in her life, paid over $40K cash, and was quite proud of the fact that she didn't need a loan. The house has been paid for, we have enough to cover all the monthly bills, all credit cards get paid in full each month although truthfully we have very little extra to spend on discretionary purchases. No need for you to feel guilty or afraid. Relish being out of debt since it's something few in this country experience.

Not to turn this into a financial management thread, but we have diversified throughout the years. We do have savings and investments, and our daughter's college is fully funded at this point.

Cmoore said:

Is being debt free in the USA a sound fiscal approach? It may be for some, but not for all or perhaps even many. Just because you can afford to pay cash for an expensive item, for example a new car, does it really make sense to do so? Perhaps not if you can earn more on money you would have paid in cash than the low interest loan associated with buying the car over time. Being debt free may be a great feeling; but, it may not be the best way to smartly manage your money.

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I want to say thanks for the replies that I have gotten.

Maybe I'm being too judgemental (pre-emptively) of others in that some current friends/associates will begrudge us because of this.

Don't let them know.

I would say you've worked hard to enjoy it. Of course, continue to save and invest, and don't fritter away the money - that would be a waste.

As for who you are as a person, you seem to be someone of strong character who does not lose sight of the fundamentals and what is important. So even if you buy a few toys, sure.. why not. But don't lose sight of what means most to you (and it's not the money, that's for sure). No rash purchases. The car sure sounds nice, but go easy for a while and see how you feel about getting back in debt. Maybe a couple of small flashlights would be better.

I'm sure you'll find new directions. Go forward, keep looking. You've passed a great milestone and I'm sure you, and what you believe in, will find even greater ones. Money's a tool that makes things possible.

You know what? It's all relative. I'm not debt free but about two years ago, I moved from a very modest house in what I'd consider to be a middle class neighborhood to one of the nicest and most expensive neighborhoods in my area. I too wondered how this new lifestyle would affect my personality and if my friends would see me in a different and undesirable way. I thought I was reaching the pinnacle of success and that I would be uncomfortable in my new surroundings. You know what? I never really felt that way, nor did I ever really feel all that successful. You know why? Because most of my neighbors have bigger houses and drive nicer cars. I still feel very fortunate to have what I have but now I want the pool and the Mercedes. I still feel the same way I did when I envied the people I now live next door to and so my personality really hasn't changed. I never really had the chance to sit back and think "look at where I've gotten". I still have the same friends and more. I still have to work just as hard as my friends and I still experience the same problems, both financially and otherwise, as they do.



Don't worry - as soon as you're debt free, you'll want to take the next leap and you'll be starting all over again without missing a beat.

Fear of success is a fairly common problem. I have a healthy dose myself.

Like anything else in life, we fear the unknown. Despite our "logical side" that tells us success is good, we still have this primal fear of it because we don't KNOW what it is like.

In my case, I'm the only one in either my mother or father's family to get a college degree. On my first job I was making more than my dad ever did. My parents bought a house in 1961 and lived there until my mom died in 1992. They never conceived "trading up" or investing in real estate.

I have no models!

I want to me a multi-millionaire, but it's hard to set the goal because I have no idea of what it's like. I already make more money than I ever envisioned, so I'm having trouble setting higher goals for myself.

Take your good fortune and good ethic and go forward. Having or not having money will not alter the type of character you obviously are. Envision yourself as you want to be in the future and you will attain that.

This is a technique athletes use very successfully. I was a professional athlete briefly and all good athletes envision their performance...train in their mind if you will...long before the competition. It works the same for careers, investing, flashlight purchases (!), etc. Envision yourself in your newfound financial freedom as you want it to turn out and it will help you accept it and work toward what you want to be.

My wife and I have been in debt of one sort or another (student loans, cars, mortgages, credit cards) for the 12 years we've been married. For various reasons (many of them based on poor decisions) our credit card debt started to get out of control, to the point where it was almost equal to our combined annual salaries at the beginning of last year. We decided enough was enough, shuffled some things around, and started lilving more frugally. Our credit card is down to 20% of what it was 15 months ago, and will be paid off by this summer. We'll start paying down our mortgage after that. Within 6-7 years, we should have our house paid for, have 3-4 cars paid for, and be in debt to no-one. We're both planning on retiring by the time we're 55 (at the latest) and we'll be happy living in our current home the est of our lives.

It seems like having some sort of debt is the american way, but it doesn't have to be. Living within your means isn't always easy, but except in rare occassions it is possible. Appreciating what you have and not always wanting more is the key. It is a concept I haven't ascribed to most of my adult life, but seeing our debt shrink rapidly and knowing that it will go away completely relatively soon gives me much more satisfaction than any number lf "things" that I could buy.

-Keith

as someone said here, financially speaking debt is not bad if you can use the loaned money in a way that gives more return than the interest paid for the loan.

Properly used debt is a way of growth, not the oposite. Any financial advisor can explain you this very clearly.


Pablo

PEU said:

Properly used debt is a way of growth, not the oposite. Any financial advisor can explain you this very clearly.

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I agree that in some situations, debt is ok and appropriate, however I also feel that perpetually being in debt (one's entire life) is not healthy. You may disagree, that is your perogative.

Everyone's definition of success will be different, part of my definition of success for myself and my family is being debt free. Another part of my idea of what success means to me is to have substantial savings/investments and a secure retirement plan.

-Keith

I think Neon is on the right track..

after all; "consider the lillies of the field..." they don't sew, nor do they toil, yet God cares about them too, not that I'm a religious guy, but, y'know?

I've heard it said that when one comes into a windfall amount of money the rule of thumb on splurging is: blow %10... sounds reasonable to me...

but truly, security? there is no security, though we'd all like to, and need to, believe there is some somewhere -- "clothe yourself with the heavens, shelter yourself with the stars.."

empty yourself of all the delusions about things that may 'complete' you -- and fill yourself with all the gifts of heaven (or the universe, for a less religious reference point)

...my 2 cents...which is all I can afford for this of my total of 20 cents...

Turbodog - Congratulations!

What should you do? BUY MORE FLASHLIGHTS. Duh. :nana:

Seriously, enjoy your success. You've earned it, you deserve it. Spend all the time you can with your daughter; THAT will pay incredible dividends down the road.

Your feeling to keep your success quiet is wise.

Cheers. :buddies:

Congrats on making a good plan and following through to fruition.

I have never had much success with people or money but I have experienced some great victories and accomplishments in my personal life. I mention this because sometimes when I have attained some goal that has alluded me for decades or even scores of years I've noticed a feeling similar to what you describe.

On the surface it may seem kind of like an emptyness but in my case it was just that I was not use to going through life without that huge thing on my mind every day -- so I guess that could be an emptyness of sorts. In my case there was an adjustment period between completing one long term goal and re-orienting myself so that I could develop a new goal(s) that would be both meaningful to me and appropriate to my new life-situation with that big old goal firmly behind me.

What I'm trying to say is, don't jump right into something new simply as a knee-jerk reaction to suddenly being relatively goal-free. Your mind is just in a bit of a vacuum for now but it's only temporary. Take some time. Absorb what your new situation will mean to not only the way you live, but more importantly, the way you will think.

It will take some time to clear the old tapes but something more interesting will come into your mind with the objectivity that can only come from the passage of time as your older big accomplishment gets farther away.

Man, does that sound corny!

Anyway, I mean it. Chill. Feel good about your victory. Be good to yourself. The old goal will be replaced eventually with another one. Give yourself the time to let this new situation sink in. The more acclimated you are to the full ramafications of your new situation the better your new direction (goals) will be for you and yours.