From Water - Split from Sun's output ....

Re: Sun's output has been increasing

ah yes there's the rub eh mr. Don? --

you're obviously the h20 doc around here so let me take advatage of that and ask you; I just yesterday got a small (10") cation resin bead filter, and a carbon block filter.. I am hoping to reduce the hardness of my well water so that I can use it in my espresso machine without scaling..
to tell you the truth, there is a slight improvement but it still has a slightly salty aftertaste.. I have improved the result a bit more by running the water very slowly; 4 minutes per gallon..

is this technology effective? is there some way to make it work better?
since I'm 100% solar, electrical purifiers are out of the question as are devices that waste more than half of the water going in, like osmosis units, since pumping the water up here takes a lot of electricity too, and can't be wasted..and I doubt the incresed solar output will take up the slack..(how's that for a thread tie-in ? )

thanks

Re: Sun's output has been increasing

Distilling the water will make it free of all impurities..

TedTheLed said:

ah yes there's the rub eh mr. Don? --

you're obviously the h20 doc around here so let me take advatage of that and ask you; I just yesterday got a small (10") cation resin bead filter, and a carbon block filter.. I am hoping to reduce the hardness of my well water so that I can use it in my espresso machine without scaling..
to tell you the truth, there is a slight improvement but it still has a slightly salty aftertaste.. I have improved the result a bit more by running the water very slowly; 4 minutes per gallon..

is this technology effective? is there some way to make it work better?
since I'm 100% solar, electrical purifiers are out of the question as are devices that waste more than half of the water going in, like osmosis units, since pumping the water up here takes a lot of electricity too, and can't be wasted..and I doubt the incresed solar output will take up the slack..(how's that for a thread tie-in ? )

thanks

Click to expand...

Re: Sun's output has been increasing

Manzer,

electric distillers, as I said, use too much of my solar electricity.
I tried the only gas range top distiller I could find and it a) takes a loong time to get a gallon, and b) heats up the house, and, the pots and piping and cooling devices are awkward.. I forget the name of it, it tasted bad too, very metalic, don't know why (they even enclosed a little charcoal filter for filtering the distilled water! what was THAT about??)

if any one knows of real well designed self contained range-top (non-electric) distiller I'd love to know about it !

thanks

Re: Sun's output has been increasing

TedTheLed said:

..... I am hoping to reduce the hardness of my well water so that I can use it in my espresso machine without scaling..
to tell you the truth, there is a slight improvement but it still has a slightly salty aftertaste....is this technology effective? is there some way to make it work better? since I'm 100% solar, electrical purifiers are out of the question

Click to expand...

Most all softening only units relay on a process called ion exchange. This is where the calcium and magnesium ions which cause hardness are swapped with other non-hardness ions. Normally this is done with some sort of a salt since the ions in salts are easily exchanged. This is probably the cause of your taste, a little of the salt is dissolving into the water.

I can only think of two suggestions, I have no idea if either of these is done on an individual home level or how effective they would be when scaled down from the multi-million gallons-per-day flows that I normally deal with.

First is aeration of the source water to remove hardness. Although my water plant doesn't do this since we don't have hardness problems. This oxygenates the water and causes oxides to form and the calcium and magnesium will fall out of the water as small particles. Plants have low flow areas where this occurs. For home use, I would try running an aquarium air pump (use medium air stone to minimize evaporation but still get good aeration) in a large container of water for several hours, then turn off the pump for a couple more hours to allow the particles to settle, and then siphon or pump the softened water off for use without stirring up the bottom too much. This would waste little power and water but need lots of time.

As for removing the taste with the carbon block, there are a couple of ways to improve the taste removal. At the water plant we use powdered activated carbon which removes a lot of taste for little material but turns the water black until we process it further. Obviously, you would not want to do this. But if you used granulated activated carbon, it would help in two ways. Activated carbon is better than non-activated in that it has a greater "attraction" for impurities so would be more effective for the same volume. Also, by using a granulated form instead of a block form, there is more surface area for the water to contact the carbon and thus remove more stuff faster. I am unsure how available either of these is for residential use since we are a water wholesaler and only sell to other water companies so I never have to deal with residential customers , only other water "professionals" (NOT!). But I do know from a prior aquarium hobby that granulated activated carbon is available for that purpose. Since you are needing it for such a small single purpose, it might be cost effective. Just make sure you rinse it well first, there is always a light coating of dust (powder mentioned above) on the granules.

Hope this gives you some useful ideas,
Don

Re: Sun's output has been increasing

I've been paying 58 cents a gallon @ wal-mart .. Then again, i only drink 1-2 gallons a week of it.. The rest is free purified water from work. I think it's called "Island Oasis". Really good counter top machine I just don't know anything about it

TedTheLed said:

Manzer,

electric distillers, as I said, use too much of my solar electricity.
I tried the only gas range top distiller I could find and it a) takes a loong time to get a gallon, and b) heats up the house, and, the pots and piping and cooling devices are awkward.. I forget the name of it, it tasted bad too, very metalic, don't know why (they even enclosed a little charcoal filter for filtering the distilled water! what was THAT about??)

if any one knows of real well designed self contained range-top (non-electric) distiller I'd love to know about it !

thanks

Click to expand...

Re: Sun's output has been increasing

There is no way to remove minerals from water by filtering. Your best bet is a solar distiller. You can buy those ready made or build them yourself (wooden tray lined with black RTV, covered by a glass shower door). Various plans are available online, try a web search.

paulr,

that's what I thought, but check out cationic resin beads..I found them at a coffee supply site, a $29 10" cationic filter is said to treat about 88 gallons of 10 grain per gallon hardness water..cheaper and more convenient than 59cent a gallon store bought (and car-transported) -- only I'm still getting a slight taste evn after the charcoal..Mr Don says it's probably the salts from the resin beads -- he may be right, but I thought theresin beads were supposed to be tasteless...

the solar still is a great idea, for sunny days. I was going to do it. Had a door-sized piece of glass ready -- then a visiting worker (accidentally) smashed it, of course... maybe it's time to consider it again, especially since the solar output is up again, did you know? .. thanks

Re: Sun's output has been increasing

DonShock said:

Most all softening only units relay on a process called ion exchange. This is where the calcium and magnesium ions which cause hardness are swapped with other non-hardness ions. Normally this is done with some sort of a salt since the ions in salts are easily exchanged. This is probably the cause of your taste, a little of the salt is dissolving into the water.

The hardness in water is due to dissolved salts of calcium and magnesium as described above by Don. When the cation (calcium & magnesium) is exchanged, another cation is put into the water. This often is sodium. The other part of the equation is the anion. This is often chloride - so the salt originating in the water is calcium chloride or/and magnesium chloride. Exchange the calcium & magnesium for sodium and you wind up with sodium chloride. So the salt is a natural byproduct of the exchange and the degree of saltiness is proportional to the hardness of the water. The harder the water was to start with, the saltier the result will be. The salt taste is not a result of the cation exchanger dissolving. The carbon filter won't take out salts - if it did you wouldn't need the cation exchanger in the first place. Carbon filters take out the organic impurities in the water which may affect its taste.
The real solution is solar distillation. Stove top stills would be very energy intensive and complicated to set up (see avatar above for classic chemistry still). Or maybe try collecting rainwater or dew...
Sam

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Re: Sun's output has been increasing

Changsn: Thanks for the details. I remembered the basics of residential softening in my water courses but not the specifics since it's not something I use on a daily basis. Looks like I need to do some brushing up!

I would think the least expensive way would be to go with an R/O system. They don't use that much water, mine is about 1 gallon made and 2-3 gallons wasted (depending on how full the holding tank was). If you have pressurized water system anyway the amount of extra time a pump might run would be very minimal. On the other hand if you don't have a regularly pressurized system, well...

They do actually make a hand pumped R/O system. I have used them boating, although honestly it was like 10 minutes of pumping to get maybe 8 oz. I think I would drink more water from the work of pumping then the water I got

There are also 12v systems made to be installed in smaller boats, which can take brackish water (salt water) and give you nice R/O out the other end. Not cheap though.

Changs,
I think you might be right about the sodium chloride -- that's what it tastes like and the water boiler on the stove isn't showing any signs of chalkiness it would if it boiled straight well water.
I don't know if the extra salt is good for me though -- must ask doc..my bp is a tad high..but now they're saying salt isn't so significant in that regard any more..
The coffee website (chriscoffee.com) recommends the charcoal filter after the cation filter for solids that do come off the cation that can gum up the works in an espresso machine..I could have used a plain particle filter, but with the charcoal you get a final 'polishing' as they say..

I tried collecting the morning dew but all that bending over with an eyedropper gave me a back ache..

Brock, I'm all solar, takes 750 watts to run the well pump to get the water 200 feet up here and into the 3000 gallon tank, then another 150 watt pump to pressurize it for the house..
so that's a significant amount of sunshine there to 'waste' 4 out of every five gallons with ro...

I really should try to get that solar still going again -- I know how to make one; big sheet of glass, GE RTV high temp black silicone, a drip trough, a tube, the bottle.. if only the revenooers hadn't wrecked grandpa's old stll

You know if you use an R/O system the 'waste' water doesn't need to be wasted. It is still good water, it is just enriched with more of the salts so it is a bit harder than the norm. Could still be used for cooking, bathing, etc... In most systems, it is 'wasted' simply because water is so cheap and easy to get. It could even be put back in the tank.
Sam

Very true! You could use it for just about anything else, I lke the idea of somehow getting it back in to the holding tank...

eeuu! well I certainly wouldn't put it back in the tank I'm drawing water from to filter..!

Something strange happens when my water tank fills to the top; the overflow comes out a pipe on the side, and right where the water hits the ground, about oh a 9 foot drop, there forms a PILE of white granular dust.
This must be the minerals precipitating out of the water through the aeration of the impact with the ground?, and possibly the aeration provided by the splashing water continuing to enter the tank? I tasted it the other day -- sure taste like the water!

Doe this mean my water is way above ten grains per gallon? My water is actually less hard than the entire club across the highway, they get their water from another district..

Don, I very much appreciate your input.

(I've been having the modem hangup every 2 minutes lately..earhtlink..seems better now) (argh! it just hung up!!)

TedTheLed - The white stuff by the overflow is probably just the calcium and magnesium salts in the water. The water overflows and the 'water' evaporates, but the salts don't and accumulate in the area. So the white stuff you see is the same as the chalkistuff you see in boiling water...Same principle as the still, the water evaporates (is boiled off) and the salts are left behind in the kettle (pot or on the ground).

Regarding the recycling of the water from an R/O system - all you are doing is taking 5 gallons of water with 10 grains of salts in it and making 1 gallon of 'clean' water, along with 4 gallons of water which now has about 12.5 grains of salt in it. Put it in a 3000 gallon tank and you will never see the difference in the output. There is nothing unsanitary about this - unless your R/O system is dirty to start with.
Sam

Another thought - if you are really uncomfortable about recycling the 'waste water' into the holding tank - use it in the toilet and flush it out the next time someone needs to potty.
Sam

by 'eeuu' I didn't mean dirty as much as salty!

taking the minerals out then dumping them back in the tank seems too counter-productive -- the potty seems to be an ideal use for it, and for soaking the dishes..

I do have an old ro unit I picked up at costco 3 years ago, the connections are daunting -- I think I got it cheap because the next model from the same ro company had all the connections 'built in' --

so maybe I should take another look at the latest ro machines -- haven't done that in years -- do they use much watts? any recommendations?

(btw, the cation filter came with 'John Guest' fittings and valves, never used them before; incredibly easy simple strong, and detachable ! wow!)