Price Point to Buy a more efficient car vs driving the gas guzzler?

Been doing the math and reading the alt fuel thread and got to thinking. If the sale goes through and I get my ford e250 van that gets 8-12mpg, its only 173 bucks a month as is at 3 bucks a gallon for fuel to go 22 miles a day. $47 to visit the folks. Way cheaper than the 477 monthly payments for a prius over the next 60 months, not to mention full insurance on the prius and its gas.

So, when would you go for another car? The van will be purchased with cash, 2 grand, 96 model, rebuilt 6 cylinder engine 44k miles on the van, 22 on the engine.

You know there are a lot of cars between a Prius and a '96 E250. Do you need a van or something else for haulin' stuff? It's a good deal for a solid low miles vehicle (but I question why an engine needed rebuilding at 22K--neglect or abuse?). And big vans don't seem to hold their value.

I dunno. I have a Jeep Grand Cherokee (16MPG) and a Mazda 626 (25+?) that will no longer pass inspection. If I had my choice I'd drive the Mazda most days. Not because of the fuel costs (which are incredibly steep for the Jeep) but because a truck is no fun to drive on road. A Ford van would be worse.

Personally I'd try and get something like a Corolla/Civic/Accord/Escort if you can manage it. A large van doesn't seem like a good choice unless you need the space.

>Been doing the math and reading the alt fuel thread and got to
>thinking. If the sale goes through and I get my ford e250 van

If you need a van, don't worry about the Prius.

>that gets 8-12mpg, its only 173 bucks a month as is at 3 bucks a gallon

This year will be three bucks a gallon. Wanna' guess what they have coming for next year?

>Way cheaper than the 477 monthly payments for a prius over the
>next 60 months, not to mention full insurance on the prius and its gas.

Buying a new car is fine if you have some money and a solid job. I had the impression your finances were a little shakey? You don't need a brand new car to have a good car, and you don't need a prius to get good milage. Look at any used small Toyota or Honda that is 50,000 miles/5 year old or less. You can get a good economical used car that is fun to drive for $10-15 thousand instead of paying $28,000 for a new car. That leaves you an extra $13k to spend on flashlights, right? <G> Besides which, Toyota says at

http://www.toyota.com/prius/index.html

a new Prius should be $22k, not $28k. Is that extra $6k interest?

>So, when would you go for another car? The van will be purchased
>with cash, 2 grand, 96 model, rebuilt 6 cylinder engine 44k miles
>on the van, 22 on the engine.

This price sounds OK for this van. Nobody buys a van to save money on gas. If you move stuff a lot, or need a place to stay sometimes, buy the van, take good care of it, and just don't worry about it.

Those are hard questions and good answers. You gotta do what works for you.

We just bought a new Prius, replacing an '02 Trooper (wonderful vehicle -- really hated to see it go) -- the numbers worked for our specific situation (helped greatly by the $3,150 tax credit).

The cost of (and future availability of) gas was the big mover for me. Given the worlds political instability, I won't be surprised to see $5 gas in the not too distant future AND the potential of no gas (you old farts remember the mid - 70's gas lines, don't you?).

But all other things being equal, it makes no sense to get out of something that's paid for just for gas savings when you drive as few miles as you state.

BTW the base price of a Prius is about $22k. With the tax credit, that would put you in one for about $18,500. That is a great deal -- if you need one.

Dude, get a ScionXA, Under 12K Brand new with a great warranty and they get 35mpg around town, put the 2K down, your gonna owe 10K over 5yrs and get 35mpg, you can thank me later

THe local toyota dealer said 22-27 depending on packages.

No need for the van, just seems the owner will give me some wheel experience and take the van to dmv for the road test. Its hugh. I may consider camping in it across county looking for a nice job with beneifts. 300 bucks a week making cold calls with no benefits aint cutting it.

THe scion and kia do seem over all the better value. around 10-12 grand, great warranty 30 something mpg.

Just wondering what was the position you would switch. I mean if its x to insure a new car, x for payment less gas cause it got better fueleconomy than the van.

If you can use the van as a camper, then you've picked up dual/multi use -- changing the equation.

If you're going to go the Scion/Kia route (not at all a bad thing to do) you might consider one of the small pickups. Not much more in cost, not quite as good mileage but a more substantial vehicle and could be more practical, depending on your uses/lifestyle. A truck would probably have a better resale down the line, tho I don't think that's much of a consideration when you're in this price range.

The Scion/Kia/Prius are great vehicles -- mine just got better today with today's $.17 gas price increase - on top of $.12 last week and more to come -- but just last week, I had to haul material for 30 feet of board fence including cement, something I would not have been able to do if it had been my only vehicle.So I have to consider it a "limited use" vehicle, thereby decreasing it's value to me. Now if there was just a 1/2ton Prius pickup.....

You really have to add all the costs and all the residual values to find out what is most economical.

If the van will cost $135 a month plus $2000. If you keep it 2 years and sell it, you have invested $5240. When you sell it for $2000 your cost is $3240.

If you buy a Prius for $477 a month plus $30 for gas. That's about $12,000 after two years. If you sell the Prius for more than you owe you get part of that back. A low milage two year old Prius should sell for about 80% of it's purchase price. It's hard to be sure about the future value of any car, but if the resale really is 80% then you will only have spent about 100 per month for the Prius. If the resale drops to 50% in two years you have closer to $250 a month. If gas climbs to $5 a gallon the whole calculation really changes.

Of course there is insurance, maintenance and repairs on top of that. An older car is more likely to need repairs and that is money that does not add to the value of the car, as evidenced by the van with 20K on a new motor going for only $2,000.


And last but not least....

Fuel economy is usually a deciding factor only within the same class of vehicle. I might look at the MPG if deciding between a similar BMW and a Porche . I might do so if looking at a Ford and Chevy Pickup. I'd never decide on a Chevy pickup instead of a Ford Van based only on milage. They are different classes of vehicles with different attributes that do not compare well.


Now the test. Which is a better buy: A $27K Prius that gets 50 MPG and is driven 50 miles a month or a $250K lamborgini that gets 8 mpg and is driven 10 miles a month?

Answers tomorrow.

Daniel

ABTOMAT said:

but because a truck is no fun to drive on road. A Ford van would be worse.

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omg.. how can you say that?! I just bought an f150.. and absolutley love it. I hate to drive my saturn coupe now. Same thing when Im at work.. i love driving an e350 box ambulance...

too each his own i guess..

my friend was driving a 97 ford expidition last summer back and forth to his job, he evenutally got a 2000 corolla to replace

it cost more monthly just in gas alone to drive the Expidition than it cost to buy the corolla,insure it and fill it up every month

I sold my 1975 Chevy van a year ago; mainly because parking it outside invited weekly parking tickets (for "street sweeping") and break ins... yes folks, people here really do break into 1975 Chevy vans looking for things of value.

I got $3,000 for it (California model - no rust, no dents, clean title) and spent $500 of that on a 1989 Hyundai Excel. It gets an easy 38 mpg in mixed driving and with that four speed trans can't go much over 75 mph so no worries of speeding tix and such. Reliable, hauls tons of junk real well because you don't care if you scratch it up... never needs oil changes, never needs washing, you'll save $$$$ on dates too because no girl will ever look at you hahahaha...

You need to ask yourself why you are doing this.

If it really is all about the money, then those have have mentioned a good, small, used car have got it right. My favorite for this sort of duty is the Toyota Corrola. The ones that have been made for the last 5-yrs+ have been EPA rated at 40 mpg. Toyota quality is legendary. Heck, their gas cars often pile up reliable miles like a diesel would.

When I needed some basic transportation, I bought a used (1988?) Toyota Corrolla at its 50,000 miles point. I think I put another 30,000 miles on it and then sold it to a friend. The daughter of that friend is still driving that car today (last I heard). It still looks more or less like it did when I owned it which was more or less like it was when it was new. Great, basic, low cost transportation. It was compfortable, roomy (for a small car), drove nice, handled nice, rode nice (again, for a small car) and wasn't offensive to look at.

So... if it is all about the money, there ya go.

Big iron raised an interesting point; fuel availability (or lack thereof).

The big gas lines of the '70s (I was 23 at the time of the Arab Oil Embargo), were caused not by price, but by availability. Later, it was simply that the Iranian revolution (when I was 29) kept their crude off the market because of political chaos (it wasn't withheld ...the facilities were simply off-line).

During both of these times, you simply couldn't count on being able to get gas when you needed it. Range became extremely important in car ads. Cars started being built with really big gas tanks. Why? Because you could put together a full tank of gas bit-by-bit over a week or so just before you left for a big trip to Grandma's or whatever and if you had a big tank, you could better count on being able to "get there and back" if you had really good range.

Hmmm... availability and range. What to do?

I'll make a plug for a used diesel for you (VW Golf, Jetta or "New Beetle").

My 2003 VW Golf TDI (diesel) has a 14.5 gallon fuel tank. It is EPA rated at 49 mpg. I actually get ...on the highway, at 70 mph, air conditioning on, in the summer, car fully loaded ...49 mpg. It is one of those rare vehicles that can actually achieve its EPA highway rating in the real world under real world conditions.

My highway range is 14.5 gal x 49 mpg = 710.5 miles.

There is an internet forum for owners of TDIs; Fred's TDI Club. Here is a thread about the "600 mile club" (getting over 600 miles on a single fillup). It is quite common to hear of TDI owners getting 50+ mpg on the highway.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=126336&highlight=800+mile

Honestly, some of the guys on Fred's are "mileage nuts".

Fuel availability raises another issue.

With a diesel, if you wanted to, you can even make your own fuel. Hook up with a local restaurant or organization that does a weekly fish fry, ask for their used fryer oil (most have to pay to have it disposed of) and then convert it to biodiesel in your garage. It costs about $1/gal for the ingrediants to make your own fuel. I know two guys that used to make their own in 5-gallon buckets. Most people don't want to fool with this (I don't ...I buy my biodiesel factory made). But if fuel were suddenly hard to get... it would be an option.

One final note on fuel economy. If you drive slower, you get better mileage. It is just a fact of physics. Wind resistance goes up hugely as speed increases. Here is a pretty funny article about "Prius Backlash" from the LA Times that says how the drivers in HOV lanes are starting to hate the Prius drivers because they "only drive 65" ('cause they are able to monitor their mileage and hate to drive faster when they see it dropping).

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-hybrids10apr10,0,4636957.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Pretty funny. Everybody complains now about the high cost of gasoline, but I still see pretty much everybody breaking the law by going 5-10 miles over the speed limit. Slowing down just 5 mph can save 10% on your fuel economy. If the government announced a new miracle technology to save 10% on every American's fuel economy, there would be this huge celebration! ...until people realized it might mean we'd all have to slow down by 5 mph.

Good post, Ikendu. And I'm dead serious with my concerns about fuel availability. If the "anti-US" world decides to bring us to our knees, they can do it and they can do it with petroleum. With the crazy man in Venezuela, the lack of stability of the Saudi ruling family and who knows what else in store for Iraq and Iran (all political concerns aside) the world's oil economy could be turned upside down in a week.

This may sound silly, but I can fill my work pickup, park it in the backyard and my wife can drive the Prius for two months on that gas. I can do the same with my diesel camper truck and my MBZ diesel car.

Sure hope I'm wrong and you guys get a good laugh from the crazy old b------!!

Let one BIG A$$ Hurricane slash through the gulf and see what what happens to gas prices.

And that's not if. It's WHEN!

A lot of what they said. If you don't NEED a big Van.... you probably shouldn't buy it. I also question it needing an engine at 25K or so. The Ford 300/6 is a tough old brick.

However if it's clean, tight and starts and runs good, you could do worse.

I'm happy to drive a diesel! In my case 2003 Ram 2500 Cummins. If I were to be looking for a car, I'd sure try to acquire a TDI Volks!

Also we have had a few Toyota Corollas over the years, and even the old 84 model I got back then was a nice ride!

You gotta march to your own drummer. We're just trying to give you some music!

Something not mentioned often enough, if ever, is that during an emergency it could be quite a blessing to have an automobile that can travel long distances without needing to refuel.

That would come in quite handy if you live in a hurricane zone, and want to make a quick exit.

BIGIRON said:

...dead serious with my concerns about fuel availability....petroleum. ...Venezuela...Saudi ruling family...Iraq...Iran

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Yup.

Here's a spot mostly no one is paying attention to... Nigeria (where we get 20% of our imported oil).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4723076.stm

"A Nigerian militant commander in the oil-rich southern Niger Delta has told the BBC his group is declaring "total war" on all foreign oil interests."

It's time we realized how vulnerable our addiction to imported oil is. It is a real national and economic security issue that most Americans are simply ignoring. But when one of the many possible disruptions happen (like the two terror attacks on Saudi oil facilities that failed recently) and the oil stops flowing and the gas lines start forming... then, we might just begin to notice.

i sometimes want a 1 liter diesel a very small car like smaller then a mini copper.i doubt there sold in the usa but i here eurupe has cars like that

ikendu said:

It's time we realized how vulnerable our addiction to imported oil is. It is a real national and economic security issue that most Americans are simply ignoring. But when one of the many possible disruptions happen (like the two terror attacks on Saudi oil facilities that failed recently) and the oil stops flowing and the gas lines start forming... then, we might just begin to notice.

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i totally agree. and people will actually be surprised! go figure.

cobb said:

THe local toyota dealer said 22-27 depending on packages.

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For $28 K it'd better have Bluetooth, GPS, and a lifetime warranty on the Trunkmonkey. Forget about a new $22K car. This is not the right time in your life for a brand new car.

No need for the van, just seems the owner will give me some wheel experience and take the van to dmv for the road test. Its hugh.

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Hmm. You're grammar's a little vague. I'm going to take this to mean that you don't have a drivers license, never did, and don't have much experience driving in general. Time to get that experience. This could be an OK starter car.

I say buy the van. Owning it will teach you to good driving habits. Because it is big you will learn to drive all the way over to your side of the road. Because it is slow you will learn not to jump into difficult situations casually. Because it is cheap you will not have to insure it for damage to the body. When you ding up your own truck (as you will) you will learn not to do the same bonehead manuvers again, ever. Because it is paid for you will not have some corporation giving you *&&@@ if you get a scratch on it. You'll have lots of room to add speakers and stuff if you want to.

You can also print up a sign and put it on the side: "FOR HIRE Man With Van." Maybe you'll pick up a few bucks moving sofas around.

Ken_McE said:

For $28 K it'd better have Bluetooth, GPS, and a lifetime warranty on the Trunkmonkey. Forget about a new $22K car. This is not the right time in your life for a brand new car.

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Strangely, the $27K Prius package does include GPS, Bluetooth, audio system, cruise, side air bags and a host of other faetures.


But I don't understand the assertion. I can buy LOTS of cars for more than $30K that don't have all the ammenities. Many have only a 3 year powertrain warranty. Why would a hybrid have to meet a higher standard?

I have driven the stretch Econoline vans, and I would not usually recommend it. It's easy to clip curbs as you turn right. They don't handle well at freeway speed. They are a hassle to parallel park (frequently impossible) and the visibility sucks. Backing up is full of suspense as you listen for noises. They do make a nice small delivery van. I transported 3000 pounds of milk to a site 100 miles away every morning for a year in one (wore it out in that year).

On the other hand, it is better than walking. You can get used to it and become proficient.

Daniel