Compact Hid or a Monster Throw luxeon

Have you ever been in a situation to choose between a Compact HID light or a state of the art luxeon with superb overall output? Battle of the "best" pocetable, outdoor light is more like it. :touche:

For me its a Mac's 5 inch wonder or a Superflashlight III. How would these two different breed of lights compare against each other? I m not talking only about throw but overall output as well.
So which light would I end up using the most outdoor?

What about the rest of you guys here? I would realy like to hear about it:wave:

I have neither of these lights (yet) though I've put down a deposit for the mini-HID and should be receiving a Lighthound SFIII soon. Here's what I think I know of these lights from 2nd hand reading (though i may be proved wrong once i actually get them)

I'd think the HID will smoke the Lux in terms of output, boht overall and throw. however, that type of HID is almost certainly not a hotstrike, meaning you're gonna be waiting about 8-10 seconds or so for it to warm up to full brightness each time you turn it on. but once it's there, you'll be punching a pretty "decent" hole in the darkness for a light that size.

the super flashlight otoh, will never compare in output to the miniHIDs. but when it comes on it'll come on in full power, and you can easily use it for intermittant use and so on. You can also use the 17670s (i think, one of the slimmer rechargeables) lions in these lights. I think someone was going to get them bored to accept 18650s and it's a shame that I don't have my light yet. though it isn't in the league of the miniHID, it'll still throw very well for it's class, and probably if you shine it at something close by you're not gonna blind yourself =P

A single LED flashlight is simply overwhelmed by a MiniHID. No contest.

I don't believe that any 3,5, or 6 LED flashlight will compete with the MiniHID in terms of pure throw (at this time). In terms of overall output, maybe the 6 LED lights like Elektro Lumens makes might come close.

The combination of a large, efficient reflector (like a Mag's), and the small lightsource created by the HID bulb, makes for an extremely effective set-up. It throws more like one of those 1 or 2 MCP spotlights.

This is from first hand experience. I own many LED lights and I'm proud to say I own a MiniHID.

Wouldn it seem that the HID had almost out-paced the LED generation in outdoor flashlight? And further more HID are getting more compact all the time.

HIDs are designed to be used for long periods of time and cannot be used for signalling. They have a 10second odd heating up period and they cannot be used for about 1m after they have been switched off.

LEDs are still more robust and more compact. They both have their own uses, but in terms of output, yes, HIDs are well above LEDs and most incandescents.

Protaeus said:

LEDs are still more robust and more compact. They both have their own uses, but in terms of output, yes, HIDs are well above LEDs and most incandescents.

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But more HID are design to be more compact nowdays that it is just as pocketable as a high power LED light.
I m a total newbie in HID and the high output keep me thinking, why would I want a top end LED outdoor light?
Whats running in my head is that you go from a :
5mm led > clustered 5mm led> Luxeon 1> Luxeon 3> Luxeon v > clusterd luxeon with the best turbo head > HID.
Do correct me if I m wrong but it does seem that for outdoor use HID would be the best. :help:

Not necessarily. there are a number of uses for an outdoor light, and sheer brightness and/or throw is but one among them. some might need runtime, or less brightness, or fast on/off capabilities, strobe, multiple levels, etc. Also, HIDs are getting smaller, but not that small as to compete with LED lights.

And of course, as Protaeus noted, HIDs have their innate limitations too. HIDs are best when you need a bright light, for a continued long period of time. if you plan to turn it off at any time, you'd better be prepared to wait - both before you can turn it on again, and after turning it on, for it to "warm up". this limitation in itself will exclude it from quite a number of activities.

Protaeus said:

HIDs are designed to be used for long periods of time and cannot be used for signalling. They have a 10second odd heating up period and they cannot be used for about 1m after they have been switched off.

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You'll definitely 'play' with your LED light more often, since it doesn't have the "no immediate restrike" and "warmup" limitations.

It really depends on your needs, but I guess personally, I don't mind a bigger sized HID light for a 'main' light for lotsa light and runtime to trek/hunt/search and I would keep a good 'personal' sized LED light (like a Gladius or SF6P with KL3) handy for times when the HID is overkill.

No harm having a Fenix, Infinity or even a Photon handy in the pocket somewhere too

If you are talking about a tight budget and deciding which to buy between the 2, I guess HID will be more 'fulfilling' and 'wowing', as long as it suits your needs.

:thumbsup: thanks for all your kind answer
now that clearly explained the cpf motto

buy both

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:nana:

Does anyone else ever had a conflicting wallet crisis like mine?
Mac's 5 inch 10 watt HId vs Superflashlight III.
Also in my list is a soon to be made Tri-Lux by MillerMod vs Microfire k500

The Welch Allyn ballast used in my HID's will restrike in around 3 seconds.....not minutes Within say 3 seconds their brighter than any LED.


Mac

Do you have the part number for the welch allyn ballast?

interscape said:

Do you have the part number for the welch allyn ballast?

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http://www.walamp.com/lpd/webstore/detail.tpl?partnumber=B10N008&cart=1145766575641678

I just got another light that keep flashing in my mind now to make things worst.
A Barbolight quad lux

HID with 3 sec hot restrike is awesome. :rock:

GhostReaction said:

:thumbsup: thanks for all your kind answer
now that clearly explained the cpf motto :nana:

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Precisely. Whoever carries just one?

I have a Mag2HID (same 10W WA Solarc bulb+ballast, but 8AA NiMH power pack and no external mods) and that thing is a fearsome thrower, but the strike time is substantial. It's not something you can turn on and off to save power or to signal. Not to say I don't like the Mag2HID - it is one of my favorite lights because of the power to weight ratio and the sheer volume of lumens/runtime it pumps out while still retaining the relatively small size of a Mag2D.

But I'd also carry a LED light for lower-intensity lighting tasks, including the ability to DIM the LED to maximize runtime when full power is not needed. Even Surefire installed LEDs in the latest rechargeable Beast for the low beam. Good move. Imagine the A2, scaled up with a D1S HID capsule and 12 LEDs instead of 3 LEDs and a tiny incan.

IMO the greatest advantage of HIDs is high output WITH good runtime, and the greatest advantage of LEDs is variable power. Once you've tried a variable-power LED that is dimmable, you may never be able to go back. Once I met my U2 I was hooked for life. But I still carry the bigger lights when I need more, uh, REACH.

U2 vs 3000-lumen 35W HID system. When pointed up a little, the 35W HID will hit the treeline, 350 meters down.

Compact HID would be the brightest and smallest package over LED and will remain so for at least a few years. If you can live with the limitations of HID, I would say get it and replace it when 120 lumens per watt LEDs become available in several years (hopefully!)

Since my photon cannons must be very durable and adjustable, I go for multiple LED variable output Mag mods. My WX1S LuxV "only" puts out 170 lumens at the LED but variable output makes up for it. If I need any more output, I can use car headlights etc. Once the BAM 4 emitter K2 Mag drop in mods become available, I am going full throttle with premium K2 emitters coupled with McR 20mm reflectors so my 400+ lumens will bring a smile to my face. The WX1S LuxV will be my variable flood light with when the head is removed.

Now for the completely insane... a 35W HID mixed with six Luxeon K2's with variable output? Use one of those A123 Systems 36V 2.0AH nano-technology Dewalt batteries for safe battery technology, light weight and pure amps. Anyone want a 4" head? That would be the ultimate light though, thousands of lumens from the HID and hundreds of lumens from variable output LEDs. The best of both worlds... at a HUGE price!

Hell, since I am dreaming of a HID/six K2 variable output light... throw some red/cyan/UV 5mm LEDs in to fill the spaces between the K2's. That thing would send the Surefire DARPA to the stone ages. I had better start saving some cash for that monster.

BentHeadTX said:

Compact HID would be the brightest and smallest package over LED and will remain so for at least a few years. If you can live with the limitations of HID, I would say get it and replace it when 120 lumens per watt LEDs become available in several years (hopefully!)

Since my photon cannons must be very durable and adjustable, I go for multiple LED variable output Mag mods. My WX1S LuxV "only" puts out 170 lumens at the LED but variable output makes up for it. If I need any more output, I can use car headlights etc. Once the BAM 4 emitter K2 Mag drop in mods become available, I am going full throttle with premium K2 emitters coupled with McR 20mm reflectors so my 400+ lumens will bring a smile to my face. The WX1S LuxV will be my variable flood light with when the head is removed.

Now for the completely insane... a 35W HID mixed with six Luxeon K2's with variable output? Use one of those A123 Systems 36V 2.0AH nano-technology Dewalt batteries for safe battery technology, light weight and pure amps. Anyone want a 4" head? That would be the ultimate light though, thousands of lumens from the HID and hundreds of lumens from variable output LEDs. The best of both worlds... at a HUGE price!

Hell, since I am dreaming of a HID/six K2 variable output light... throw some red/cyan/UV 5mm LEDs in to fill the spaces between the K2's. That thing would send the Surefire DARPA to the stone ages. I had better start saving some cash for that monster.

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WHOA - not sure which is more scary, your 35W HID + Luxeon idea, or that I may actually have the capability to PULL IT OFF....

My 35W spot has a 5" metal reflector, but plastic exterior, so I would be leery of driving the LEDs too hard. The metal reflector would act as a heatsink. Since the LEDs are going to be used as a low beam, they need not be driven very hard anyway, since if you want megalumens, you get megalumens from the 35W HID beam anyway.

What I would do - first see this picture of the bulb:


(not the best picture I have, but it's the only one)

See flat space around the bulb. More than enough room for as many as half a dozen emitters of your choice, in my case, I'm not particularly fond of the K2, so I'll stick with the tried and proven Lux1 HD emitters.

Epoxy LEDs onto the reflector surface taking care not to damage it. Drill two holes for one incoming positive wire, one outgoing negative wire.

Tap a parallel path from the 12V battery pack with independent switch, or modify the existing switch to a 3-position (off, LED, HID) switch. Cable the LED lines to a Downboy 400 (variable power fans who want *EVEN MORE* options can use a variable-power converter of their choice), drive the LEDs in series, good luck.

The presence of the LEDs may create minor beam artifacts, but the main beam of the HID is already enough of a monster that this should not be an issue. On low, I'd say one could possibly get maybe 90 lumens from the small LEDs, in a flood. No point driving too hard as LED efficiency falls at high drive currents, makes more sense to drive three LEDs at lower ratings to achieve the same thing. Alternatively you could just smack one big fat LuxV in, or a couple of Lux3s.

The options are limitless - use your LED design imagination here, because we have all the space you could want. Colored LEDs like the Kroma? Sure, I can think of a couple of six-position rotary switches available at the local electronics shop that would provide more than enough positions to support a few colors of LED.

' Scuse the question from a noob'holic, but, wouldn't that monster melt or do some serious damage to a emitter or several around it?

Like exceed thier operating temps before they were ever turned on hehe.

Don't know,just a dumb thought.


IF

Not a dumb thought at all, it did occur to me, but it kinda reminds me of a colleague's coffee mug so long ago, which said....

"Old enough to know better, TOO OLD TO CARE"

(old enough = been on CPF long enough to know how to drive and cool LEDs properly.. too old to care = been on CPF TOO long )

The lumen gods are demanding sacrifice! I will line up a few PX1H binned rejects for slaughter. Heck if we fry 'em, someone has to find out!

OK, so the reflector is 5" so figure around an 8 inch head? Put the metal reflector in an aluminum head (with thermal isolation please) Ring the remaining space with K2s and McR 20mm reflectors. Get George80 to build a custom nFlex to push 500mA to six K2s for variable output. Throw some 5mm red/cyan/UV/amber LEDs near the Luxeons... and have it all run on a 36V A123 Systems nano-technology Lithium-Ion Dewalt battery.

If you are going to dream, dream big!

I gotta keep it small.. because I am the one who has to build it

I'm thinking within the limitations of my own (very limited) capabilities.. oh well. May just put a couple of spare scrap Lux1s in my spotlight and call it a day. It will, after all, achieve my objective of having two power levels.... and it could all be built and ready by next week.