Why incandescent make things more visible in the dark than LED models?

Yesterday my little dog (dashhound) got lost at woods. When I noticed I started looking for him with the worker that works in my farm.

I picked my 3C cell MagLite and the Surefire G2 with G&P 3W luxeon mod.

I was using the Mag with krypton bulb with yellowish tint, but I could see very well in the woods at night.

When I met the worker using the G2, I putted the Mag on the floor to pick the dog, than I noticed that I couldn't see very well under the Luxeon white light.

Does it happens with you guys?

Now I think that my next lights will be Incandescent ones, especially Surefires with Turbo Heads... even with the low runtime.

FredericoFreire said:

Yesterday my little dog (dashhound) got lost at woods. When I noticed I started looking for him with the worker that works in my farm.

I picked my 3C cell MagLite and the Surefire G2 with G&P 3W luxeon mod.

I was using the Mag with krypton bulb with yellowish tint, but I could see very well in the woods at night.

When I met the worker using the G2, I putted the Mag on the floor to pick the dog, than I noticed that I couldn't see very well under the Luxeon white light.

Does it happens with you guys?

Now I think that my next lights will be Incandescent ones, especially Surefires with Turbo Heads... even with the low runtime.

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Your English is fine. It has a touch of Brazilian accent but it is good.

I was demonstrating a Pentalux and a ROP last night to 2 friends in a weedy, grassy field and one of them noted that the rop seemed to define detail better. I never noticed it before.

I'm not sure that I can go along with the premise as stated in the Subject.

Unlike incans, LED lights may be had with emitters in any almost any color desired, with more colors coming on the scene every day. Small variations in color may make a big difference in what you see. Using the right color for the job will sometimes make all the difference in the world. (scorpions, semen, etc) While incans may put out many colors through the use of filters, it must be noted that doing so may very well waste 2/3 of the total output. It's also true that humans have had over 100 years to get used to the way incans render colors.

Then there is the matter of how much current it takes to drive incans in general. This issue does not exist in a vacuum. In most real world situations I'll gladly trade five times the runtime that an LED light will give me over an incan at the same output level -- and I'll get to choose my own color.

I find I can see better with LED's. But it varies person to person. Perhaps it also depends on the distance too..

Incans do have better color and detail rendition than LED's in general, but a LED (or a cluster of them) that's been tuned right will start to approach the effectiveness of incandescents. I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is the different wavelength characteristics between incans and LED's that allow incans to give better definition in the dark.

LED produces a very weird spectrum. The nature of the light makes certain things way easy to see while it hides certain things.

There are a few spots on my wall that are patched with patching compound, which fluoresces under higher energy light (i.e. shorter wavelength) and because of the high blue contents (LED derives white from adding yellow to pure blue light by yellow phosphor that produces yellow from blue).

With incandescent you really don't see it. With LED, it shows up like glow in the dark.

Incans do have better color and detail rendition than LED's in general, but a LED (or a cluster of them) that's been tuned right will start to approach the effectiveness of incandescents. I seem to remember reading somewhere that it is the different wavelength characteristics between incans and LED's that allow incans to give better definition in the dark.

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Many reputable sources state that for humans, optimal shape recognition for both photopic and scotopic vision occur in the blue/green range of the visible spectrum. That is a range that can only be attained by incans with filters, dumping nearly 2/3 of their total output in the process, as previously mentioned. An LED emitter, on the other hand, may be selected precisely for optimal scotopic or photopic shape recognition or even a compromise wavelength for both with very little waste.

Incans may seem optimal for color rendering but for the most part their accuracy is skewed towards yellow/red. There are many color rendering tasks where the various 'whites' of LEDs are superior to the relatively few incan tints available.

I'm sure that others will differ but that's good enough for me. The human eye is really only called upon to do two different things for the most part, the first is shape recognition and the second is color rendering, and it's going to be a hard sell to prove that incans can outperform well designed LED lights for either task IMO.

I wonder how the relative output stats of the incan vs. LED that are being compared is playing into this. I just happen to have been out the other night with two lights - my CPF multi-level 4W overdriven LED and an incan. I was walking in a wooded area (moonless night) and I was primarily using the LED on high. I was trying to see some distant objects that appeared somewhat washed out with the LED. I fired up the incan and could see the distant objects quite clearly. I went through the thought process that this thread is concerned with - that perhaps the incan light is somehow better at illuminating things in a way that humans are more adept at perceiving.

Then it occurred to me that the incan was actually producing more light - higher output and more throw, than the LED. I was making an unfair comparison.

Oh, the incan was my SF 10X Dominator - just the MN-32 (110 lumen) bulb, of course....

It was even brighter when I included both bulbs.... :lolsign:

I'm not sure that I can go along with the premise as stated in the Subject.

Unlike incans, LED lights may be had with emitters in any almost any color desired, with more colors coming on the scene every day. Small variations in color may make a big difference in what you see. Using the right color for the job will sometimes make all the difference in the world. (scorpions, semen, etc)

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You miss the point. For illuminating a natural scene so that you can see the most detail you don't want a particular color; you want all colors in (roughly) equal proportions; that is you want white not a color. This is where incandescent light is superior to LEDs. Incandescent light provides a broad spectrum of colors while most LEDs provide only a very narrow color spectrum. Only the latest warm white LEDs can approach the quality of light from an incandescent.

Now I think that my next lights will be Incandescent ones, especially Surefires with Turbo Heads... even with the low runtime.

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I suggest you try an Underwater Kinetics UK4AA with the 4-watt incandescent lamp module.

This is a review of the rechargeable UK4AA with 4-watt incandescent lamp:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/uk_4aa_nimh.htm
It can be purchased here:
http://www.brightguy.com/detail_int.php?Sku=UND14208

or you can buy the 4-watt lamp separately:
http://www.brightguy.com/detail.php?Sku=UND14824
and use it in a non-rechargeable UK4AA body:
http://www.brightguy.com/detail_int.php?Sku=UND14107

I do a lot of telecom/datacom work which involves discerning color codes on copper wires and fiber optic bundles. I've found (as well as some co-workers) that an LED flashlight is MUCH better than an incandescent for discerning color codes in dense wiring bundles. The difference is actually fairly dramatic and often elicits a "wow" from a co-worker when I illuminate his work area with my QIII or even my Photon Freedom.

For use outdoors I have yet to find an LED flashlight that can illuminate things as well as an incandescent can.
Up close LEDs are great without a doubt but beyond ten metres outside LED light no matter how intense lacks the clarity I see from incandscent beams.

I don't care whether I should be seeing something different. I see what I see and for outdoor use I need a Turbohead SureFire if I want to see anything more [distant] than what is pretty much right in front of my feet.

Al

You miss the point. For illuminating a natural scene so that you can see the most detail you don't want a particular color; you want all colors in (roughly) equal proportions; that is you want white not a color.

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I've never seen the results of any comprehensive studies that support that statement. Perhaps you could source that. I will quickly admit that the vast majority of people are uncomfortable and/or not used to using anything but white -- but that refutes nothing expressed in the results of many scientific studies.

If you are saying that white is your favorite beam color and that that's what you're used to -- I understand. You are in the majority. That is why most lights emit a white beam. If you are saying that white is the best 'all around' color for a beam -- I understand that, too. The problem is that that has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. That's a whole 'nother thread.

I think that many are overlooking the current brightness superiority of their incans in this equation, as others have mentioned. Yes, a D8 Cat actually can out-pull a Hummer. Again, power and runtime were left out of the Subject.

Show me the science that indicates that a yellowish light is better for shape recognition. Show me the science that indicates that anything less white than some of today's LEDs can render color more accurately.

Some of you guys decribed exacly what I think.

Since I'm young (only 26 y.o.), my eyes still are in a good shape and my vision is way good.

Somethings that I'd like to say since the beginning of the topic and didn't know to mention in english:

Incans do have better color and detail rendition than LED's in general

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LED produces a very weird spectrum. The nature of the light makes certain things way easy to see while it hides certain things.

Click to expand...

perhaps the incan light is somehow better at illuminating things in a way that humans are more adept at perceiving

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For illuminating a natural scene so that you can see the most detail you don't want a particular color; you want all colors in (roughly) equal proportions; that is you want white not a color. This is where incandescent light is superior to LEDs. Incandescent light provides a broad spectrum of colors while most LEDs provide only a very narrow color spectrum. Only the latest warm white LEDs can approach the quality of light from an incandescent.

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The quotes above says exacly what I think.

@David Campen: Thank you for the advice of Underwater Kinetics UK4AA, I'm reading about it on the links you posted.

I have to run some tests of my own - I am red-green color blind and I wonder how my interpretations will differ.

It's never affected me too much except when picking out clothes and being told I could not join the Navy.

I'm colorblind too and my experience with the A2 LED mode is that it's ok but incans of equal lumens look like real light and LEDs look fake. A spotlight could never be made using LEDs in my opinion, a technology superior to LED,incan & HID will someday be the mainstream, and the "LED" technology will be skipped over.

At work I use LED's because of the runtime and the ability to turn the light off and on alot without worrying about going through bulbs, but for serious uses, like a defensive EDC light, of course I'll choose an incan. like an E2E any day of the week. They're just far superior for that purpose. I think most people who think they can see better with LED's are only fooling themselves. Just my opinion and it's worth what it cost.

If you're in a tactical situation and you drop your incandescent light on a hard surface, will the bad guy wait while you fumble for the light in the darkness to relamp it?

... I think most people who think they can see better with LED's are only fooling themselves. Just my opinion and it's worth what it cost.

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Here's a great page put together by scientists who must be fooling themselves into thinking that the human eye is much more sensitive to some colors of light than others. Here's a page put up by the USAF Flight Surgeon who has not only fooled himself but has also put up a remarkably similar graphic. (fig. 8-20, 2/3 of the way down the page)

I have not and am not going to make any claims that border on the religious about what I believe others are able to see or about what I believe others actually do see in spite of what they themselves report. I'm pretty much satisfied to look at the results of research and what my own eyes tell me without trying to project my religious beliefs onto anyone else.

I'm still interested in any research that would tend to substantiate any of the broad claims that have been asserted on this thread.

Sub_Umbra said:

the human eye is much more sensitive to some colors of light than others.

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Nobody here has said otherwise. It's pretty common knowledge that the eye is most sensitive to the color green. All that's being said is that the broad spectrum of colors of incan lights are far superior to LED's. And that lets you see details much better and you have better color definition.

It's hard to describe how LED's also tend to 'throw shadows', but anybody who has used an LED light knows what I'm talking about.