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Thread: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

  1. #91
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox
    Hello JSR,

    Battery Station, Titanium, and several other CR123 cells have a tendency to initially drop in voltage, then pick back up when the chemistry becomes activated. Testing those cells reveals that there is some difference in capacity, but not the 30-40% that is indicated by initial ZTS testing.

    Once you use the cells, the ZTS results are more accurate.

    When Newbie tests these mismatched new cells, we will have another data point on this problem.

    Tom

    Quickbeam did some testing on this:
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...&highlight=zts

  2. #92
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Hello Newbie,

    I saw that, and went to Doug's review site to see what he had done. He did one sample of mixing a 100% with a 20% and shut things down when the light went out. I believe you have demonstrated that you need to keep the circuit connected for a while after the lamp goes out to get the venting to occur.

    It is interesting to note that run times with the mismatched cells was similar to using cells that tested at 100%, however the performance was not the same.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  3. #93
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    not sure if it has been mentioned already... But I think it is important to note... and emphasize, that before that tailcap nearly went through an oak cabinet door- it went through several layers of plastic (plastic bins in the cabinet)... So had the inicial force, been focused only on the door, It probably WOULD HAVE gone right through it... The power behind that tailcap could be estimated in the ballpark of small caliber weapon fire.
    -Eric

  4. #94
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Update:

    I got the ZTS tested Titanium cells from Tom- Thanks!
    I have another batch of SF and Titanium cells from McGizmo- Thanks!
    I have another batch of BS cells from CY- Thanks!
    I have another batch of BS cells, newer date code, from Kevin at BS.
    I ordered and received in Ultralast cells and Samsung cells.
    I'm waiting for my order of Tenergy and ?Powerizer? cells from Battery Junction.

    I finished getting the uC programmed for the datalogger, and it is reporting all the ADC channels nicely.

    I started building the signal conditioning circuits.

    I'm short one ice point temperature reference for the K-Type thermocouple conditioning circuit. The part number I'm waiting for is LTC1025 from Linear Tech.

    Almost in business!
    Last edited by NewBie; 08-19-2006 at 01:03 AM.

  5. #95
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Hello NewBie,

    I hope you are on good terms with your garbage collector... A sudden increase in dead lithium cells may raise some questions.

    This should be a very informative run of testing. Hopefully it will provide us with some answers and not add to the questions we already have.

    Thanks for taking the time and effort to do this.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  6. #96
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Update:

    I have three channels of the signal conditioning circuitry built up, and have connected and calibrated two of the voltage channels. The third channel is for the current measurement signal conditioner circuit.

    I still don't have my ice point reference parts.

    I may go ahead and run one set of cells to see what data I can gather for now, once I get the current channel going and calibrated.


    I decided to switch to coding in C, as it is *much* easier, than dealing with indirect registers, memory management and various other items, in assembler. It also makes code changes pretty simple. A sample of one of my earlier screen captures:
    Last edited by NewBie; 08-20-2006 at 06:31 AM. Reason: add photo

  7. #97
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Okay, well, I'd gotten the signal conditioning circuits all wired up for both battery voltages, and for the current. I'm still waiting for the parts to build the temperature monitoring signal conditioning circuits. Anyhow, I put it all together and did a run, logging the data.

    For starters, I decided to start with a particularly discharged cell, 45% discharged, 55% remaining, and figured I'd work my way up until I hit the discharges that would cause venting. As it turned out, even this combination in the Amondotech Titanium caused a venting incident. I will post the video tomorrow.

    This incident was one of those where the cell vented before the bulb went completely out.

    As I had long suspected, the venting cell was being reverse charged in this scenario.

    Here is the plot of the data:



    It will be very interesting, to see how these plots vary with the venting or not, the severity of the vent, as well as temps. I'm hoping to get my ice point chips soon.

    So far, it has been a good exercise, I got my feet wet with both Assembler and C coding.
    -----------------

    Venting video that goes with this dataset is found here, it is also a very unique and interesting video:
    http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/amondo10.wmv
    Last edited by NewBie; 08-21-2006 at 11:20 PM. Reason: Add video link

  8. #98
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Real interesting and informative system you have developed!!

    Seeing the relatively straight line of the current with the voltage of the one cell dropping is quite illuminating. It will be ineresting to see if you have a similar plot with a constant current driver instead of a hotwire.

    Facinating! Thanks!!!
    Build Prices .... some mods and builds (not 4 sale) "Nature can be cruel- but we don't have to be."~ Temple Grandin

  9. #99
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Awesome info Newbie! Thanks for sharing all your effort, time, and money.

  10. #100
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Hello NewBie,

    Looking good...

    It is interesting that the voltage of the 45% cell did not hold up well at all.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

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  12. #102
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    McGizmo:

    Its been a fund project, the datalogger, I've had the developer's kit for the uC (Atmel STK-500), and hadn't gotten around to doing much with it yet, besides doing some LED blinking stuff.

    I can't wait until I get the ice point parts in for the temperature channels. I'm also considering building channels for monitoring both light output and sound.

    I'll see if I can also get the venting video up tonight from this test. It marks the first time I've been able to get a cell that was 45% depleted to vent.

    On a side note, the logging did not start from time zero, but after about three minutes.

  13. #103
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    NewBie, that first "telemetry" sure looks like a smoking gun!!! If it's reproduceable, things should be pretty obvious to informed end users of Li primaries! And you have seemed to prove it for us who consider our selves "informed!"

    Larry
    So much for not being able to find my happy a** with both hands and a flashlight! (Do not look into Tank Searchlight with remaining eye!)

  14. #104
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by tvodrd
    NewBie, that first "telemetry" sure looks like a smoking gun!!! If it's reproduceable, things should be pretty obvious to informed end users of Li primaries! And you have seemed to prove it for us who consider our selves "informed!"

    Larry

    Subsequent test run data should prove extremely interesting.

    The venting video that goes with the above data is here, and is interesting to watch, as it is also another unique video:
    http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/amondo10.wmv
    Last edited by NewBie; 08-21-2006 at 11:24 PM. Reason: Link

  15. #105
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Okay, here is a NO venting plot of a 40% discharged cell. Notice how the "100%" cell is weaker than in the venting one. I assume it lacked the power to drive the other cell as far negative (or reverse charge). Please note the time scale has changed to fit the data. Another interesting thing is the 40% cell kept jumping around, note the fuzz area.

    Last edited by NewBie; 08-22-2006 at 08:11 AM. Reason: fix picture URL

  16. #106
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    Okay, here is a NO venting plot of a 40% discharged cell.
    Hi Newbie:

    Did you by any chance post the wrong chart?

    OK, never mind, I see it took you all of 1 minute to get that corrected!
    Steve Offiler
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Newbie, are these partially discharged cells used in your testing new cells that tested below 100% on the ZTS tester, and/or used cells that were drained X% of total capacity?

    From what I've read so far it seems that people have had problems with all brands of 123 cells. Is there enough data to show which brands have more consistant capacity from cell to cell? Last night I tested around 10 Battery Station, 10 Surfire, and 3 Duracells with a ZTS Mini-MBT. The Battery Station cells were around a year old and the Surfire and Duracells were probably 2 years old. The Duracells and the Surefires all repeatedly tested 100% capacity. The Battery Station cells tested from 20% - 80% capacity. It seems that the Battery Station cells have a lower voltage under the test load.

    I still have much to understand, but the great CPF gang is helping alot. Thanks guys.
    Last edited by Ben H; 08-22-2006 at 11:43 AM.

  18. #108
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Newbie,
    Although this was a new cell coupled with a partially discharged cell, the graph is possibly one you might see with a pair of two partially discharged cells? It has been reported in the past that a pair of new cells don't discharge at the same rate with a differential that can be measured after partial use. The ability to monitor the individual cells like you are now doing is a fantastic window into the nature of how these batteries and lights work! I can't thank you enough for your time and efforts on this!!!
    Build Prices .... some mods and builds (not 4 sale) "Nature can be cruel- but we don't have to be."~ Temple Grandin

  19. #109
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    Subsequent test run data should prove extremely interesting.

    The venting video that goes with the above data is here, and is interesting to watch, as it is also another unique video:
    http://www.molalla.net/~leeper/amondo10.wmv
    Is it me or was that explosion/venting strong enough to move the piece of wood within the container?

    Wil
    Please no PM/Visitor Msg's. Email for questions/Paypal: wquiles [at] gmail {dot} com

  20. #110
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Great work, Newbie! These extra data channels are really providing some extra insight.

  21. #111
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    We can thank Newbie by supporting this expensive/dangerous effort by sending funds.

    Newbie should not have to shoulder this expensive research alone!

    I hate to do this, but since no one has stepped up.
    you can PM me for my paypal info and I will collect and forward much needed donations. If needed I will start a new thread for this.

    all of cpf will benifit from this extremely valuable research...

    Quote Originally Posted by McGizmo
    The ability to monitor the individual cells like you are now doing is a fantastic window into the nature of how these batteries and lights work! I can't thank you enough for your time and efforts on this!!!

  22. #112
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    pm sent...
    A few favorite lights from: McGizmo, Data, milkyspit, HDS, and Surefire

  23. #113
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben H
    Newbie, are these partially discharged cells used in your testing new cells that tested below 100% on the ZTS tester, and/or used cells that were drained X% of total capacity?

    From what I've read so far it seems that people have had problems with all brands of 123 cells. Is there enough data to show which brands have more consistant capacity from cell to cell? Last night I tested around 10 Battery Station, 10 Surfire, and 3 Duracells with a ZTS Mini-MBT. The Battery Station cells were around a year old and the Surfire and Duracells were probably 2 years old. The Duracells and the Surefires all repeatedly tested 100% capacity. The Battery Station cells tested from 20% - 80% capacity. It seems that the Battery Station cells have a lower voltage under the test load.

    I still have much to understand, but the great CPF gang is helping alot. Thanks guys.

    These two were from a batch of AmondoTech cells I'd very recently purchased, like a week or two ago.

    I take a new cell, and deplete it at a rate for x time that uses up x amount of 1500mAH. Then I pair it with a fresh new cell for the run.

    The problem with it, is that you never know for certain, what the fresh battery or the partial depleted cell is at for capacity at the beginning.

    I did notice, with the BS cells, once they started sending the ZTS tested as 100% cell, my results got *alot* more repeatable.

    Next up, I've got a few tests up with ZTS tested cells.


    Quote Originally Posted by wquiles
    Is it me or was that explosion/venting strong enough to move the piece of wood within the container?

    Wil
    If you look carefully, you will notice the 2 x 4 has moved around in the bucket before. On some of the videos, you can see it lift the heavy 1/2" thick polycarbonate window that is about 3 ft long, and you can also see it rock the meter up to an 1". I have had it completely lift the polycarbonate sheet, with a fireball escaping out behind it, lifting the sheet completely off and into the air- but no videos...yet.


    Quote Originally Posted by cy
    We can thank Newbie by supporting this expensive/dangerous effort by sending funds.

    Newbie should not have to shoulder this expensive research alone!

    I hate to do this, but since no one has stepped up.
    you can PM me for my paypal info and I will collect and forward much needed donations. If needed I will start a new thread for this.

    all of cpf will benifit from this extremely valuable research...
    Thank you very much, it is very kind of folks to help out. Lately, several folks have provided batteries, which are mentioned earlier in the thread, and one fella even stuffed money in with the cells...lol! I think my wife was even more happy than I was to see it, as I keep spending money on these cells, equipment, parts, I keep testing with, and she doesn't get anything out of it...there was also well over a month of testing which I did prior to this thread and other threads, where I was running thru cells like water, looking for some failure mechanism. It really is amazing how fast things add up, when it is on your own dime, 100 bux here, 200 bux there, 50 bux for this, etc...- you take notice pretty quick after a few weeks. (ehm, and I bought way too many cells at retail counter pricing, yikes!)

    All this testing and building things, monitoring, prepping cells with thermocouples, making videos, etc. take a surprising amount of one's personal time. If I was getting paid for the amount of time, I'd be pretty well off by now.

    I really appreciate the kudos from all of you, it helps encourage me alot, and I want to thank everyone, especially those who are nameless, and prefer to send PMs.
    Last edited by NewBie; 08-22-2006 at 09:20 PM.

  24. #114
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Okay, here is the first run of the ZTS tested cells. A ZTS tested 10% cell was matched up with a ZTS 100% cell.

    No, I did not get the cells mixed up.

    There was no venting.

    I sure wish I had the parts to build my temperature signal conditioning circuits, the data would be very helpful here. If anyone knows someone that has the LTC1025 in stock, please holler. Right now, I don't care what package it is in.

    Notice, in this case, how the ZTS "weaker" cell (10%) out performed the 100% cell, in the middle of the run, but towards the end, the 100% cell keeps it's voltage up longer.

    I have a theory I've considered, which has to also do with cell temperature and placement in a flashlight body, we all know how the head section runs alot hotter than the rear section. This may also would contribute to failure conditions. When I partially deplete a cell, as in my previous tests, and then hook everything up, that partially depleted cell is warmer than the other one, just like it would be in a flashlight. As we all know, chemical reactions usually happen faster/"better " when things are warm. As we all also know, cells tend to perform better when warm. This may lead to a further imbalance, causing the warmer cell (the one by the head), to deplete sooner.

    However, we will have to wait and see, and see what the data reveals.

    Meanwhile, I'll do several more runs, with things as they are, to see how things shake out (if they show similar results).














    Oh, you guys wanted to see the chart, eh?

    Last edited by NewBie; 08-23-2006 at 12:56 AM. Reason: semantics

  25. #115
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    When I try to load the first 100 posts (1st page) of this thread then I get the following error:
    Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 1354523 bytes) in /home/cpf/httpdocs/vb/includes/functions.php on line 2128
    Can some techy look into this? Thanks.

  26. #116
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by drmaxx
    When I try to load the first 100 posts (1st page) of this thread then I get the following error:
    Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 8388608 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 1354523 bytes) in /home/cpf/httpdocs/vb/includes/functions.php on line 2128
    Can some techy look into this? Thanks.

    Reduce your post count on threads to 40. Others have had the same issue.

  27. #117
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Newbie:
    These are amazing data!
    It is very interesting to see how the voltage behaves shortly before the venting. It seems that the strong cell is almost exclusively pumping energy into the charging cell. Additionally there is a spike in voltage in the strong cell and a sharp decrease in the weak cell. This looks like a thermal runaway - and a very fast one in addition.
    It would be interesting to monitor the current of the individual cells. It might be that in the end you basically have a short-ciruit on the strong cell where the charging cell is converting all the energy into heat.
    This also might explain, why turned off flashlights explode. Additionally, this would show very nicely that this is only a problem of multiple cell lights.

  28. #118
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by drmaxx
    ...It would be interesting to monitor the current of the individual cells. It might be that in the end you basically have a short-ciruit on the strong cell where the charging cell is converting all the energy into heat.
    This also might explain, why turned off flashlights explode. Additionally, this would show very nicely that this is only a problem of multiple cell lights.
    drmaxx: There is no need to monitor the current through each cell individually. They are connected in series, therefore, the current is identical through both. The single current plot NewBie provides is all you need to know exactly what is going on in both cells.

    Again, NewBie, major props man!
    Steve Offiler
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by soffiler
    drmaxx: There is no need to monitor the current through each cell individually. They are connected in series, therefore, the current is identical through both. The single current plot NewBie provides is all you need to know exactly what is going on in both cells.
    - Sorry, my bad!

  30. #120
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    Default Re: 123 Primary Lithium cell info/testing/links

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    Okay, here is the first run of the ZTS tested cells. A ZTS tested 10% cell was matched up with a ZTS 100% cell...
    NewBie: for the sake of clarity... these are both brand-new cells? (as opposed to you depleting one purposely down to 10%)

    If they're both brand-new, I'd suggest this was more a ZTS tester anomaly than a real mismatch test. Which also helps explain why the "10%" cell pulled ahead of the "100%" cell, and why there was no venting.
    Steve Offiler
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