Surge w/ 4 vs 8
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Lux Luthor
Flashlight Enthusiast
I have made runtime tests on the Surge with (fairly used) 4 AA 1600mAh NiMh batteries, and gotten around 50 minutes. I have some new Maha Powerex 1800 NiMHs and plan on doing tests in the future with those.
I cannot tell the difference in brightness between 4 or 8 NiMhs in the Surge. I do not have 2 of them to compare side by side, but if there's any difference it would be very small. There probably is a difference between 4 or 8 alkalines, since alkalines can't deliver as much voltage under load.
I cannot tell the difference in brightness between 4 or 8 NiMhs in the Surge. I do not have 2 of them to compare side by side, but if there's any difference it would be very small. There probably is a difference between 4 or 8 alkalines, since alkalines can't deliver as much voltage under load.
bcwang
Enlightened
Is the brightness nearly the same with fully charged nimh compared to new alkalines in the Surge?
Lux Luthor
Flashlight Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bcwang:
Is the brightness nearly the same with fully charged nimh compared to new alkalines in the Surge?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would say it's nearly the same. I haven't run alkalines in it since I ran down the alkalines it came with. With NiMh it is plenty bright.
Is the brightness nearly the same with fully charged nimh compared to new alkalines in the Surge?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would say it's nearly the same. I haven't run alkalines in it since I ran down the alkalines it came with. With NiMh it is plenty bright.
brightnorm
Flashaholic
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy Guyer:
I have made runtime tests on the Surge with (fairly used) 4 AA 1600mAh NiMh batteries, and gotten around 50 minutes. I have some new Maha Powerex 1800 NiMHs and plan on doing tests in the future with those.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My testing with a variety of alkaline batteries (no rechargeables) have indicated that with 8 fresh Ray-O-Vac Maximum AA's (longest burntime AND cheapest) you will get approximately 3 hours of functional light.
After about three hours the brightness decays fairly rapidly. The term "functional light" refers to a brightness range of "very bright": roughly = to 100 LU Surefire to "Average bright": roughly = to a fresh conventional 2D flashlight.
Unfortunately, the Surge cannot take lithiums. Brightguy warned against this, and my tests verified it.
If you're going into a situation where you need the longest, brightest burn in a very small light, the UK Mini Q40 on lithiums will give you a longer, brighter burn than any other small flashlight including the Tec 40. In my three separate burntime tests, it consistantly provided 4.5 hours of functional light, with an additional 30-45 minutes of dimming light. With batteries the light weighs 3.7oz.
I've never used rechargeables, but I'm rethinking that now. Anyone know how long a burn I could get using rechargeables in any of our well-known lights?
(Yes, I'm a burntime nut!)
Best regards,
Brightnorm
I have made runtime tests on the Surge with (fairly used) 4 AA 1600mAh NiMh batteries, and gotten around 50 minutes. I have some new Maha Powerex 1800 NiMHs and plan on doing tests in the future with those.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My testing with a variety of alkaline batteries (no rechargeables) have indicated that with 8 fresh Ray-O-Vac Maximum AA's (longest burntime AND cheapest) you will get approximately 3 hours of functional light.
After about three hours the brightness decays fairly rapidly. The term "functional light" refers to a brightness range of "very bright": roughly = to 100 LU Surefire to "Average bright": roughly = to a fresh conventional 2D flashlight.
Unfortunately, the Surge cannot take lithiums. Brightguy warned against this, and my tests verified it.
If you're going into a situation where you need the longest, brightest burn in a very small light, the UK Mini Q40 on lithiums will give you a longer, brighter burn than any other small flashlight including the Tec 40. In my three separate burntime tests, it consistantly provided 4.5 hours of functional light, with an additional 30-45 minutes of dimming light. With batteries the light weighs 3.7oz.
I've never used rechargeables, but I'm rethinking that now. Anyone know how long a burn I could get using rechargeables in any of our well-known lights?
(Yes, I'm a burntime nut!)
Best regards,
Brightnorm
geepondy
Flashlight Enthusiast
Brock has stated in previous post(s), definitely dimmer with 4 AA Alkaline's vs. 8.
I use Nimh's (all eight, not four) in my Surge (1600 mah Panasonics). The one runtime that I measured, gave me just a shade under two and a half hours light. The beauty was that, the light output remained near constant output thruout that time period. Initially new alkaline's start out brighter and not by a great deal but the alkaline's fade steadily so it's not too long into the runtime that the alkaline's become dimmer then the nimh. Don't have two Surges to give a timeframe as to when this happens but I'm very happy running nimh's in the Surge.
Incidentally as I posted on another thread, that when using nimh's vs. alkalines in an Arc LS, the nimh's were much dimmer. I assume it's because the regulator circuitry in the Arc LS is much more sensitive to voltage differences.
I use Nimh's (all eight, not four) in my Surge (1600 mah Panasonics). The one runtime that I measured, gave me just a shade under two and a half hours light. The beauty was that, the light output remained near constant output thruout that time period. Initially new alkaline's start out brighter and not by a great deal but the alkaline's fade steadily so it's not too long into the runtime that the alkaline's become dimmer then the nimh. Don't have two Surges to give a timeframe as to when this happens but I'm very happy running nimh's in the Surge.
Incidentally as I posted on another thread, that when using nimh's vs. alkalines in an Arc LS, the nimh's were much dimmer. I assume it's because the regulator circuitry in the Arc LS is much more sensitive to voltage differences.
brightnorm
Flashaholic
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by geepondy:
...The one runtime that I measured, gave me just a shade under two and a half hours light. The beauty was that, the light output remained near constant output thruout that time period... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Geepondy,
That's pretty impressive. How do ni-cads compare? It seems that rechargeables give the equivalent of a regulated circuit. It's a shame they lose charge so quickly, though I must say that my cell phone's li-ion spare battery seems to maintain its charge quite well.
I've stated before that I regard my lights as go anywhere, anytime emergency lights, which seems to mandate lithiums. Perhaps I could carry a rechargeable everyday light too. But isn't the voltage of rechargeables considerably less than equivalent alkalines?Then again, you pointed out that the alkalines soon dim to the rechargeable's starting level, from which point the latter triumph. What about Li-ion AA's. Is there such an animal?
Sorry for all these questions, but how else to learn? (That was another question!!)
Best regards,
Brightnorm
...The one runtime that I measured, gave me just a shade under two and a half hours light. The beauty was that, the light output remained near constant output thruout that time period... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Geepondy,
That's pretty impressive. How do ni-cads compare? It seems that rechargeables give the equivalent of a regulated circuit. It's a shame they lose charge so quickly, though I must say that my cell phone's li-ion spare battery seems to maintain its charge quite well.
I've stated before that I regard my lights as go anywhere, anytime emergency lights, which seems to mandate lithiums. Perhaps I could carry a rechargeable everyday light too. But isn't the voltage of rechargeables considerably less than equivalent alkalines?Then again, you pointed out that the alkalines soon dim to the rechargeable's starting level, from which point the latter triumph. What about Li-ion AA's. Is there such an animal?
Sorry for all these questions, but how else to learn? (That was another question!!)
Best regards,
Brightnorm
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
How do ni-cads compare? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NiMH cells run about 1600 - 1800 mah. Alkalines run about 3000 mah. With alkalines, by the time you've consumed enough power to drop them to the 1800 mah range, the brightness has diminished sufficiently to justify battery replacement. NiMH stays consistently bright through a large portion of it's discharge cycle, which gives you as much or more useful light for a longer time.
Nicad's mah is much less than the NiMH, and even though they give a similar curve to the NiMH, the length of service is not sufficient.
I run NiMH in my Surge, and recharge them every five weeks, unless I've used it sufficiently before then to warrant a earlier recharge.
How do ni-cads compare? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
NiMH cells run about 1600 - 1800 mah. Alkalines run about 3000 mah. With alkalines, by the time you've consumed enough power to drop them to the 1800 mah range, the brightness has diminished sufficiently to justify battery replacement. NiMH stays consistently bright through a large portion of it's discharge cycle, which gives you as much or more useful light for a longer time.
Nicad's mah is much less than the NiMH, and even though they give a similar curve to the NiMH, the length of service is not sufficient.
I run NiMH in my Surge, and recharge them every five weeks, unless I've used it sufficiently before then to warrant a earlier recharge.
geepondy
Flashlight Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
That's pretty impressive. How do ni-cads compare? It seems that rechargeables give the equivalent of a regulated circuit. It's a shame they lose charge so quickly, though I must say that my cell phone's li-ion spare battery seems to maintain its charge quite well.
I've stated before that I regard my lights as go anywhere, anytime emergency lights, which seems to mandate lithiums. Perhaps I could carry a rechargeable everyday light too. But isn't the voltage of rechargeables considerably less than equivalent alkalines?Then again, you pointed out that the alkalines soon dim to the rechargeable's starting level, from which point the latter triumph. What about Li-ion AA's. Is there such an animal?
Brightnorm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm going to do a second runtime test to verify the results. That seems a bit long.
The nominal voltage of nimh's is only 1.2V compared to 1.5 for alkalines. However as other's have pointed out, the voltage drops considerably under load, particularly with a relatively power hungry device like the Surge. I'm "guessing" that because nimh's can produce a higher current then alkaline's that even though their nominal open circuit voltage is lower, they might not drop as much under load, perhaps making up for some of the no load voltage differences. Maybe somebody can back this up with test data.
Nicads can hold their charge longer then nimh's but have a much less total capacity. As far as I know there aren't as of yet any Li-ion's AA batteries.
I don't like to use alkaline's in any non regulated light due to the poor drainage curve. I end up tossing them before they reach the end of their life cycle. The Surge is just a regular around the house light. I plan on charging the batteries once a month or so if not drained before then. Certainly I have lithium backups, particularly in the car but I'm rarely in a situation where they need to come into play so using the Surge with the nimh's is going to be very cost effective. The batteries were only two dollars a piece.
That's pretty impressive. How do ni-cads compare? It seems that rechargeables give the equivalent of a regulated circuit. It's a shame they lose charge so quickly, though I must say that my cell phone's li-ion spare battery seems to maintain its charge quite well.
I've stated before that I regard my lights as go anywhere, anytime emergency lights, which seems to mandate lithiums. Perhaps I could carry a rechargeable everyday light too. But isn't the voltage of rechargeables considerably less than equivalent alkalines?Then again, you pointed out that the alkalines soon dim to the rechargeable's starting level, from which point the latter triumph. What about Li-ion AA's. Is there such an animal?
Brightnorm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm going to do a second runtime test to verify the results. That seems a bit long.
The nominal voltage of nimh's is only 1.2V compared to 1.5 for alkalines. However as other's have pointed out, the voltage drops considerably under load, particularly with a relatively power hungry device like the Surge. I'm "guessing" that because nimh's can produce a higher current then alkaline's that even though their nominal open circuit voltage is lower, they might not drop as much under load, perhaps making up for some of the no load voltage differences. Maybe somebody can back this up with test data.
Nicads can hold their charge longer then nimh's but have a much less total capacity. As far as I know there aren't as of yet any Li-ion's AA batteries.
I don't like to use alkaline's in any non regulated light due to the poor drainage curve. I end up tossing them before they reach the end of their life cycle. The Surge is just a regular around the house light. I plan on charging the batteries once a month or so if not drained before then. Certainly I have lithium backups, particularly in the car but I'm rarely in a situation where they need to come into play so using the Surge with the nimh's is going to be very cost effective. The batteries were only two dollars a piece.
txwest
Flashlight Enthusiast
As long as you have th NiMh batteries, get a Tec 40 & use the NiMH's along with a 3D Krypton bulb. Be sure to get the faceted reflector. TX
brightnorm
Flashaholic
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- Oct 13, 2001
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Thanks all, for good info.
Best regards,
Brightnorm
Best regards,
Brightnorm
Lux Luthor
Flashlight Enthusiast
I'm doing a runtime test on the Surge with 8 new Powerex NiMhs. They're supposed to have the largest charge capacity of any AA NiMH on the market. I'll wait 'til dark and do it again though, so I'll have 2nd results. It will probably take until later tonight. I'm expecting close to 3 hours, and it may take 2 1/2 hours to recharge the batteries.
Brightnorm,
The only thing I don't like about the Mini Q40 is it uses a proprietary bulb. I prefer to have a commonly available bulb for an emergency/survival light, but I suppose if you have enough extras that would be OK.
Also, have you tried the Tec 40 with other bulbs? I've tried it with overdriven 3 cell bulbs, and it works great (Whitestar is a little less likely to hit the lens than KPR103). It seems you could go the other direction and get better runtime.
Brightnorm,
The only thing I don't like about the Mini Q40 is it uses a proprietary bulb. I prefer to have a commonly available bulb for an emergency/survival light, but I suppose if you have enough extras that would be OK.
Also, have you tried the Tec 40 with other bulbs? I've tried it with overdriven 3 cell bulbs, and it works great (Whitestar is a little less likely to hit the lens than KPR103). It seems you could go the other direction and get better runtime.
Lux Luthor
Flashlight Enthusiast
Before anyone else tries this, BEWARE. I had the Surge on its side for an hour and a half, when I noticed that the bulb melted part of the reflector. The reflective paint in one place near the bulb bubbled up. I guess you can't keep the Surge on for too long at one time, unless maybe you point it straight up.
Also, the light went out suddenly after an hour and a half. I checked that the bulb was OK, then I managed to get it to run again. Then it went out a couple of times after that.
Is it possible the Surge has thermal shutdown protection? Or am I just losing it? Is there a ghost in my Surge? Am I demon posessed? I swear I didn't mess with the batteries, or jostle the light. It just worked, then didn't work, etc.
Also, the light went out suddenly after an hour and a half. I checked that the bulb was OK, then I managed to get it to run again. Then it went out a couple of times after that.
Is it possible the Surge has thermal shutdown protection? Or am I just losing it? Is there a ghost in my Surge? Am I demon posessed? I swear I didn't mess with the batteries, or jostle the light. It just worked, then didn't work, etc.
brightnorm
Flashaholic
- Joined
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Guy,
I've tried so many lights with so many different batteries (non-rechargeable)and lamp combos that I can't keep them straight! Of course I should have written all that down, but I was so focused on batteries and run-time I neglected this basic step. Shame on me!
Regarding your unfortunate Surge experience; that has never happened to me. Is it possible that your super duper nimh batts are over voltage? What sort of bulb were you driving? It's a little disturbing (aside from ruining a good light) because it suggests a possible fire hazard.
Frankly, because the evolution of battery technology over the years has been so slow and frustrating it's becoming obvious (IMO) that the revolution is more likely to occur in lamp types and in regulated circuitry, as is already happening.
Brightnorm
I've tried so many lights with so many different batteries (non-rechargeable)and lamp combos that I can't keep them straight! Of course I should have written all that down, but I was so focused on batteries and run-time I neglected this basic step. Shame on me!
Regarding your unfortunate Surge experience; that has never happened to me. Is it possible that your super duper nimh batts are over voltage? What sort of bulb were you driving? It's a little disturbing (aside from ruining a good light) because it suggests a possible fire hazard.
Frankly, because the evolution of battery technology over the years has been so slow and frustrating it's becoming obvious (IMO) that the revolution is more likely to occur in lamp types and in regulated circuitry, as is already happening.
Brightnorm
Lux Luthor
Flashlight Enthusiast
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
Regarding your unfortunate Surge experience; that has never happened to me. Is it possible that your super duper nimh batts are over voltage? What sort of bulb were you driving? It's a little disturbing (aside from ruining a good light) because it suggests a possible fire hazard.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Brightnorm,
I think they're standard voltage. I have a 3rd set charging now. I'll check the voltage when it gets done. The bulb is the standard Surge bulb (I'm still on the original one).
About the runtime, just before I posted, I thought the batteries were dead. I was disappointed, cause they only lasted 2 1/2 hours. Then suddenly, with the light sitting on the table 10 ft. from me, it came back on at full brightness!
The only thing I can think of is the contacts. I didn't think it could be this, though , cause with 2 sets, you would think they wouldn't both go out. I don't think it's the heat, because the bezel has been off.
Needless to say, I can't do a proper runtime test until I straighten this out.
ps. The light isn't ruined. The beam looks the same.
edit: It went off before I first finished this post, and now it came back on again! And at full brightness.
Regarding your unfortunate Surge experience; that has never happened to me. Is it possible that your super duper nimh batts are over voltage? What sort of bulb were you driving? It's a little disturbing (aside from ruining a good light) because it suggests a possible fire hazard.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Brightnorm,
I think they're standard voltage. I have a 3rd set charging now. I'll check the voltage when it gets done. The bulb is the standard Surge bulb (I'm still on the original one).
About the runtime, just before I posted, I thought the batteries were dead. I was disappointed, cause they only lasted 2 1/2 hours. Then suddenly, with the light sitting on the table 10 ft. from me, it came back on at full brightness!
The only thing I can think of is the contacts. I didn't think it could be this, though , cause with 2 sets, you would think they wouldn't both go out. I don't think it's the heat, because the bezel has been off.
Needless to say, I can't do a proper runtime test until I straighten this out.
ps. The light isn't ruined. The beam looks the same.
edit: It went off before I first finished this post, and now it came back on again! And at full brightness.
Lux Luthor
Flashlight Enthusiast
The light is definitely cycling on and off. It goes on fully for 5 minutes, shuts off for 10 minutes, then turns back on.
I have a theory:
Since I burned my reflector on the 1st runtime test, I did the 2nd one with the battery compartment completely removed from the body. I used pliers to hold the switch on. After 2 1/2 hours, I wanted to see if the light was still looking like a Surge, so I reassembled it, and it did. When I continued the test, I took the bezel off, but I left the battery compartment in the body.
The batteries must have some built in thermal overload protection. That is the only thing that seems possible. I'll repeat the runtime tests tomorrow with the cage completely out of the light.
It's good to know I don't have a demon.
I have a theory:
Since I burned my reflector on the 1st runtime test, I did the 2nd one with the battery compartment completely removed from the body. I used pliers to hold the switch on. After 2 1/2 hours, I wanted to see if the light was still looking like a Surge, so I reassembled it, and it did. When I continued the test, I took the bezel off, but I left the battery compartment in the body.
The batteries must have some built in thermal overload protection. That is the only thing that seems possible. I'll repeat the runtime tests tomorrow with the cage completely out of the light.
It's good to know I don't have a demon.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Guy Guyer:
Then suddenly, with the light sitting on the table 10 ft. from me, it came back on at full brightness!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who you gonna call? Ghost Buster
Alan
Then suddenly, with the light sitting on the table 10 ft. from me, it came back on at full brightness!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who you gonna call? Ghost Buster
Alan
Lux Luthor
Flashlight Enthusiast
Update:
It's not the batteries. There's something wrong with my Surge. Well sooner or later something had to go wrong with one of them. I guess I'm just the first unlucky one. It still works, but won't sustain prolonged use on account of one of the compartments. If I use 4 batteries in the other compartment it works fine.
The batteries are quite good, and pack a very large charge capacity. Don't hesistate buying these.
I'm temporarily switching over to my Tec 40 with White Star 3D bulb. I may do runtime tests on that configuration, since it seems to be popular.
p.s. My earlier post in this thread with the 50 min. runtime on 4 NiMH AAs is bogus. Those batteries were no good. My smart charger refuses to charge them, and I threw them out. The Powerex batteries at least double that runtime.
It's not the batteries. There's something wrong with my Surge. Well sooner or later something had to go wrong with one of them. I guess I'm just the first unlucky one. It still works, but won't sustain prolonged use on account of one of the compartments. If I use 4 batteries in the other compartment it works fine.
The batteries are quite good, and pack a very large charge capacity. Don't hesistate buying these.
I'm temporarily switching over to my Tec 40 with White Star 3D bulb. I may do runtime tests on that configuration, since it seems to be popular.
p.s. My earlier post in this thread with the 50 min. runtime on 4 NiMH AAs is bogus. Those batteries were no good. My smart charger refuses to charge them, and I threw them out. The Powerex batteries at least double that runtime.
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