Sony battery problems could go beyond Dell laptops

cy

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Sony battery problems could go beyond Dell laptops

"Faulty batteries produced by Sony like those that caused Dell to initiate a huge recall this week could be present in laptops from other companies and other portable electronics products......

"Under certain rare conditions there is an elevated risk that the battery may overheat or catch fire as a result of the presence of metallic particles in a critical area of the battery cell," said Takashi Uehara, a spokesman for Sony in Tokyo."

http://www.goodgearguide.com.au/index.php/id;1321702921
 

Billson

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This is bad. I've always assumed most of the risk comes from misuse or mishandling by the end-user. How would we know if the batteries themselves are defective until they blow up?
 

cy

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Exploding batteries
Too hot to handle

"Since lithium-ion batteries were introduced in 1991, their capacity to overheat and burst into flame has been well known. Indeed, in 2004 America banned them as cargo on passenger planes, as a fire hazard. But the latest problems seem to have arisen because of the manufacturing process, which demands perfection. "If there is even a nano-sized particle of dust, a small metal shard or water condensation that gets into the battery cell, it can overheat and explode," says Sara Bradford of Frost & Sullivan, a consultancy."

http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7807419
 

HarryN

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I will be the first to say that I really hate Sony, esp. for their RIAA actions. That said, I actually have great respect for their 18650 cells. They actually have done a lot of work to make quality cells which will even pass space qual.

I guess the bottom line, is that if Sony has problems with cells, we all have problems.
 

senecaripple

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sonysux. i wont particularly buy any sony products unless i need too. i ust cancelled their credit card! dont need them to be spying on me when i charge with their card!
 

Ray_of_Light

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Any cell, not only LI-Ions, can produce fire, or explode, if shorted in a battery pack.

The area of the crimp (or laser) seal at the top of the battery is the critical place; a small piece of solder or other unwanted metal will cause a dangerous short circuit. Also, a defective insulator disk, or poor shrink wrap can lead to the same dangerous result.

Cobalt Oxide Lithium (3.7 V Li-Ion) are the rechargeable batteries that packs the more energy among commercial cells; there is no economical alternative to them, in my opinion.

Again, it is wrong that the media point their fingers against Li-Ion; more traditional chemistry cells will produce the same, if not worst, explosion if they are shorted, due to the high current (+100 A) and Hydrogen release.

About 10 yrs ago, I had a D size 4 Ah Ni-Cd go short in a 6 Volt lantern. The lantern was in my hand, and it exploded. The biggest piece of plastic was 1 cm size, with the exception of the lantern handle - that remained in my hand. I had ear problems for days.

Anthony
 

BentHeadTX

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I think A123 Systems and Valence are going to get a much closer look after this fiasco. Then there is Europositron, if they ever bring out their prototype they are working on at the moment. Conventional li-ion and lipo will be heading to the dustbin of history once those technologies roll out with large pack sizes.

I am looking at two 24V 12AH NiMH packs with a 5C (60 amp discharge) at this point in time.
 

SilverFox

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The RC people tend to push things to the limits. They have discovered that cells within a battery pack can become unbalanced during use. When the cells become unbalanced, they end up being over charged and over discharged.

A Li-Ion cell will precipitate contaminates under these conditions. It is also possible that the manufacturing process can be contaminated. We have heard that there are metal particles contaminating the cells. If the metal is copper or lithium (or some combination of what is produced during over charge and discharge conditions), the problem is not manufacturing, but abuse.

Some laptop battery packs have 2 parallel sets of 4 cells in series. I do not believe there are any provisions to monitor individual cell voltage, so the pack is charged as 4 cells in series with global over and under voltage protection. If a single cell becomes weak, you can end up with an over charge or over discharged situation.

The RC people have discovered that if you monitor the individual cells and balance the pack with every charge, problems are greatly reduced. It has been thought that at lower current draws, the cells should not get out of balance, but the possibility is still there.

This makes me wonder if the problem is not with the batteries, but with the charging and protection circuit. The focus on the batteries may be a smoke screen to hide behind while they figure out how to modify their circuitry. Perhaps they need to add a heat sensor for each cell, or balance the individual cells during the charging process.

The big hole in my argument is that not all battery packs are being recalled. I have a Dell Inspiron 8100 that is not effected - (yet). Perhaps it is just a bad batch of cells, but I don't think the general public will ever know the full story.

Tom
 

wptski

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Maybe going from Ni-MH to Li-Ion packs for notebook PC and laptops wasn't such a good idea?
 

Ray_of_Light

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When I read the news of the exploded Dell batteries, my first thought was a problem with the wiring/welding of the cells. It is a fullly automated process and it undergoes very little QC, so there is room for large scale mistakes.

As Tom pointed out, my hypothesis is not the only possible cause of the problem. Let's see.

A laptop battery is made of a series-parallel of Li-Ions cells. Every group of paralleled cells is monitored separately during charge and discharge, and the individual capacity (of each group) is measured at each cycle. Any variation of capacity is written in a flash memory, together with the number of cycles and other information such as voltage, temperature etc, as specified in the SMB-forum protocol.

The laptop communicates with the battery with a serial syncronous connection. Since every battery contains one or two NTC sensors plus a thermal fuse, every problem is usually communicated to the OS, which shuts down the computer.

As long as the electronic controller is working, cells cannot become unbalanced both during charge and discharge. The effective capacity of a laptop battery is directly related to the capacity of its weakest cells.

Now, the firmware can lockup, like any other code-driven interface. In this case, the serial link with the computer is interrupted, and charge/discharge is no longer possible.
The MOSFET could short, and in this case an error flag would be raised and the battery deactivated. Same for overtemperature, or a sudden change of the charge/discharge curve of the cells.
Mac computers allow the reset of the battery from the console. Win computers require a specialized software to reset the battery.
So, in principle, I would exclude an electronic problem, since there are too many controls in place.
Of course, this is only a line of thinking.

A defective cell could be a problem. Li-Ion have their mechanism of failure. Precipitation of the cobalt, as Tom said, is one. An excessive precipitate, due to an excessive de-crystallization of the Lithium Cobalt Oxyde, could lead to a short-circuit of the ionic separator in the cell. Each cell is directly paralleled with one or more other cells, with no supervision at all from the uP.
This would make the other good cells set the defective cell in flames with no possibility of recovery.

The fact is that the precipitation occurs after the 500th cycle, and the battery is programmed to stop working after 300 full cycles.
Of course, this is valid for good cells... in the case of the exploded Dell batteries some cells may have born defective.

Please take a look here:
http://www.sbs-forum.org/specs/sbc110.pdf

Anthony
 

NewBie

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SilverFox said:
The RC people tend to push things to the limits. They have discovered that cells within a battery pack can become unbalanced during use. When the cells become unbalanced, they end up being over charged and over discharged.

A Li-Ion cell will precipitate contaminates under these conditions. It is also possible that the manufacturing process can be contaminated. We have heard that there are metal particles contaminating the cells. If the metal is copper or lithium (or some combination of what is produced during over charge and discharge conditions), the problem is not manufacturing, but abuse.

Some laptop battery packs have 2 parallel sets of 4 cells in series. I do not believe there are any provisions to monitor individual cell voltage, so the pack is charged as 4 cells in series with global over and under voltage protection. If a single cell becomes weak, you can end up with an over charge or over discharged situation.

The RC people have discovered that if you monitor the individual cells and balance the pack with every charge, problems are greatly reduced. It has been thought that at lower current draws, the cells should not get out of balance, but the possibility is still there.

This makes me wonder if the problem is not with the batteries, but with the charging and protection circuit. The focus on the batteries may be a smoke screen to hide behind while they figure out how to modify their circuitry. Perhaps they need to add a heat sensor for each cell, or balance the individual cells during the charging process.

The big hole in my argument is that not all battery packs are being recalled. I have a Dell Inspiron 8100 that is not effected - (yet). Perhaps it is just a bad batch of cells, but I don't think the general public will ever know the full story.

Tom


There are plenty of the charge management protection IC for multiple cells, many of which need no interaction with the computer for battery pack protection, but the computer may adjust/interact/ and adapt as necessary, they have been out for quite some time now, an example:

The bq29312A provides safety protection for over-charge, overload, short-circuit, overvoltage, and undervoltage conditions with the battery management host. In overload and short-circuit conditions, the bq29312A turns the FET drive off autonomously dependant on the internal configuration setting.
The communications interface allows the host to observe and control the current status of the bq29312A. It enables cell balancing, enters different power modes, sets overload levels, sets the overload blanking delay time, sets short-circuit threshold levels for charge and discharge, and sets the short-circuit blanking delay time.
Cell balancing of each cell is performed via a cell bypass path, which is enabled via the internal control register accessible via the I2C compatible interface. The maximum bypass current is set via an external series resistor and internal FET on resistance (typical 400 ).
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq29312a.pdf

This one costs a whopping 0.90 ea (at 1k volume), and is probably way too much money to pay for a little bit of added safety, to the company bean counters.

You can tie in a full blown "gas guage" management chip, that resides inside the battery pack if you want, but it will cost you another 4.00 ea (at 1k volume):
http://focus.ti.com/docs/prod/folders/print/bq2084-v140.html


You can go full standalone, with no software junk to mess up, but a stand alone setup will cost you a 1.55 in 1k volumes. These have been around since at least January 1999.
http://focus.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/ucc3957-1.pdf



It isn't uncommon that engineers would like to use things like this, and know they should, but the pressure from the bean counters doesn't allow them to.

IMHO, in the end, the bean counters got their due in the Dell case. It is sad that the end-user has to deal with the results.
 
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SilverFox

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Hello NewBie,

If the battery packs have a protection circuit like that, then the problem would be bad cells. I wonder if any of the Dell packs use something like that...

Tom
 

NewBie

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SilverFox said:
Hello NewBie,

If the battery packs have a protection circuit like that, then the problem would be bad cells. I wonder if any of the Dell packs use something like that...

Tom


Well, some laptop battery packs are made such that they have the bare minimum inside, which can be nearly nothing, sometimes just a thermal trip and a over voltage circuit.

See my post about the "analog" chip that has been around since January 1999 that I mentioned above. Dallas/Maxim have had similar parts since way back too. Even with all of the external parts put together, you are looking at 2.50 tops for the whole setup to protect 4 cells, with the TI part.

An example of a Dallas/Maxim part is found here:
http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2022

This Maxim part also does much the same thing:
♦ Overvoltage Protection
Programmable Limits from +4.0V to +4.4V
Accurate to ±0.5%
♦ Undervoltage Protection
Programmable Limits from +2.0V to +3.0V
Accurate to ±2.5%
♦ Cell Mismatch Protection
Programmable Limits from 0 to 500mV
Accurate to ±10%
♦ Overcharge Current Protection
♦ Overdischarge Current Protection

There are a bunch of other makers of similar chips.

I've never had one of these particular problem battery packs, it would be very interesting to get one to take apart though...
 
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