A Respectful US Immigration Discussion

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bonvivantmike

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I saw the thread on the Middle East, and thought this might be a good place to start a dialogue on the current United States immigration debate. Obviously, no racism, name calling or insults (standard CPF rules).

If this thread already exists elsewhere, my apologies. I didn't see it when I searched.

I'll start....

I personally believe that illegal immigration is harmful to the United States, for the following reasons:

1. Illegal immigrants flout US immigration law. As an orderly society, our laws should be meaningful and respected. If a law is wrong, it should be changed, not ignored.

2. Illegal immigrants commit a variety of other crimes once in the US, secondary to their illegal status. They drive without insurance and drivers licenses, work "under the table" without paying taxes and work on falsified identities (including mine, I have come to find out). This doesn't even take into account commonplace criminal offenses that are committed both by illegal immigrants and other elements of society.

3. Illegal immigrants drive down wages for lower-skilled workers. Those who were born in the US, or legal immigrants with marginal skills, are finding it difficult to obtain jobs because illegal immigrants will work for less. In areas with high illegal immigration, such as California, it is becoming impossible for an American high-school dropout to earn a living wage in fields such as construction, janitorial or factory work, as these jobs almost always go to illegal immigrants at much lower wages than an American would accept.

4. Illegal immigrants raise housing costs, particularly for lower-income Americans. Supply and demand tell us that given a fairly fixed supply, which is the case in most areas, an increased demand will lead to higher prices. Since illegal immigrants are typically in the market for "affordable" housing, this most significantly impacts those in the lower-income categories.

5. Illegal immigrants impact traffic. Again, we have a fixed supply of roads. The more drivers on them, the slower traffic moves. I live outside Los Angeles, and dread driving on LA freeways during peak travel times. Obviously, there are a number of reasons why roads are crowded, but adding more drivers in the form of illegal immigrants doesn't help the situation.

6. Illegal immigrants cost tax dollars in the form of social services and education. While illegals cannot typically obtain welfare, they can obtain emergency health care (it's illegal to refuse anyone) and education for their children, both those born here and those who also illegally entered the US. I have seen estimates of up to $1,700 per year per household as the tax cost of social services for illegal aliens.

I am aware that the low labor cost of illegal immigration keeps costs down in some industries, which results in lower prices for consumers. Most studies indicate this cost savings is fairly small. Even if it weren't, however, I would happily pay more for agricultural products and other similar items if I knew that the workers were working legally and receiving a fair and living wage for their labor.

Obviously, deporting 12 to 20 MILLION illegal immigrants is not practical. I would be in favor of much stricter enforcement on employers who hire illegal immigrants. Mandatory jail terms for managers who hire them, and crippling fines, such as $1 million per day per illegal immigrant. As long as fines of a few thousand here and there are levied on offenders -- less than the savings realized by hiring illegals -- it will just be considered a cost of doing business. Once employers won't hire illegal immigrants, the main reason for being in the US would be removed. Hopefully they would return to their home countries, and work towards making those countries better places to live.

I am opposed to a temporary guest worker program. The "bracero" program in the 1940s - 1960s was an abject failure. We created an exploitable underclass. Other nations have also learned that "temporary" guest worker programs are anything but temporary. Workers do not want to go home once they have had a taste of the lifestyle to be had in a First World economy.

I'm also opposed to any sort of amnesty for those illegals already here. We should not reward illegal behavior. Illegals currently here should be punished for their crimes (tax evasion, identify theft, etc.) and should have to leave the US before being allowed to re-apply to immigrate. The government does not forgive me if I break the law, nor should illegal immigrants be forgiven.

I know that others will disagree with my position. Let's keep it respectful!
 
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Brighteyez

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The blinders may have obstructed part of your view, but I think you forgot to mention that your local economy (that of the greater LA Metro area, aka Southland region) would collapse if your prejudices were implemented, as would the economies of several other major urban areas of the U.S. And as surprising as it might sound to you, the other area where there would be a severe if not disastrous impact on the economy would be the Chicagoland area.

BTW, deporting criminals is how you got your other contribution to the Southland economy, the Russian Mob. But let's face it, the oil companies may even have them beat this time. :(
 

Bogus1

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In essence after you state deporting 12-20 million illegal immigrants would not be practical that ends up being the goal or your recommended course of action. You wouldn't succeed at making this happen without a military style ethnic cleansing. All these policing and bureaucratic actions would do is create more desperate people, crime and virtually all the items you list as a result of illegal immigration.

There are many answers to this problem. However it's really easy to say Americans would pay more for this or more for that for a social agenda however it rarely ends up being true. Eliminating a cheap, honest and hard working class would end US agriculture as we know it. It's still cheaper to import foods than to grow it with higher wages unfortunately.

The reason we have this problem to begin with is it benefits business and not the other way around. Sure perhaps benefiting business is not the equivalent to benefiting the American people, but Washington has never understood this. This is why Bush parts company with his neo conservative popular constituency on this issue. The guys who really paid his ticket want the cheap work force to remain!
 

dragoman

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There are many views on this subject, and I'll simply say this:

I don't care if someone wants to come here and EARN a better life for themselves. IMHO, an illegal who wants to work is better than a citizen who sits on welfare because they are lazy.

I say we enforce registration, force employers to register their employees and force said employees to pay taxes. The amount of public money spent on illegal aliens and their children that is not paid back in the form of taxes is truly very large.

As far as that other stuff, housing and such, this is a free market economy, and as such supply and demand rule. If housing is too expensive for you in your neighborhood, and you lack the skills/education to afford something better in your area, either A) Move somewhere else or B) obtain training/education to enable yourself to earn more money. Simple.

Illegals are not bad people, the vast number of them are people who want to work and make a better life for themselves. Unfortunately the way our laws are set up, they couldn't pay taxes and do the right thing even if they wanted to!

Lets fix the system to allow people who want to work to contribute to our society in the form of taxes, and their cultural and personal additions can only help too.

I say we deport the lazy *******s who take federal/state welfare, food stamps, etc... and those who don't work and deport them! I'd miss them far less than the guy who I pay to harvest crops, after all.....

BTW, here in Maryland, I know of several people who recieve social benefits (welfare) because they are a junkie (addicted to heroin) and "can't work".

Talk about a bunch of bullsh*t....

dragoman
 

Coop

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bonvivantmike said:
I'm also opposed to any sort of amnesty for those illegals already here. We should not reward illegal behavior. Illegals currently here should be punished for their crimes (tax evasion, identify theft, etc.) and should have to leave the US before being allowed to re-apply to immigrate. The government does not forgive me if I break the law, nor should illegal immigrants be forgiven.

Why not give them amnesty? How about giving all illegals a one time opportunity to become legal. That way they will have to start paying taxes and live by the rules. After that, sharpen up the rules drastically, making it very unattractive to be illegal in the US. That way, the 'good guys' will become legal and the 'bad apples' can be prosecuted....
 

bonvivantmike

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MayCooper said:
Why not give them amnesty? How about giving all illegals a one time opportunity to become legal. That way they will have to start paying taxes and live by the rules. After that, sharpen up the rules drastically, making it very unattractive to be illegal in the US. That way, the 'good guys' will become legal and the 'bad apples' can be prosecuted....

There was an amnesty, in the Reagan Administration. It was a "one-time" amnesty that supposedly included a tightening of the rules for employers to verify the legality of their employees. It was a complete failure. We have many more illegal immigrants now than we did then.
 

B@rt

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bonvivantmike said:
I saw the thread on the Middle East, and thought this might be a good place to start a dialogue on the current United States immigration debate. Obviously, no racism, name calling or insults (standard CPF rules).

The Middle East thread is an experiment, not an excuse to start simular threads. ;)

Thread closed.
 
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