bonvivantmike
Enlightened
- Joined
- Jan 4, 2004
- Messages
- 299
I saw the thread on the Middle East, and thought this might be a good place to start a dialogue on the current United States immigration debate. Obviously, no racism, name calling or insults (standard CPF rules).
If this thread already exists elsewhere, my apologies. I didn't see it when I searched.
I'll start....
I personally believe that illegal immigration is harmful to the United States, for the following reasons:
1. Illegal immigrants flout US immigration law. As an orderly society, our laws should be meaningful and respected. If a law is wrong, it should be changed, not ignored.
2. Illegal immigrants commit a variety of other crimes once in the US, secondary to their illegal status. They drive without insurance and drivers licenses, work "under the table" without paying taxes and work on falsified identities (including mine, I have come to find out). This doesn't even take into account commonplace criminal offenses that are committed both by illegal immigrants and other elements of society.
3. Illegal immigrants drive down wages for lower-skilled workers. Those who were born in the US, or legal immigrants with marginal skills, are finding it difficult to obtain jobs because illegal immigrants will work for less. In areas with high illegal immigration, such as California, it is becoming impossible for an American high-school dropout to earn a living wage in fields such as construction, janitorial or factory work, as these jobs almost always go to illegal immigrants at much lower wages than an American would accept.
4. Illegal immigrants raise housing costs, particularly for lower-income Americans. Supply and demand tell us that given a fairly fixed supply, which is the case in most areas, an increased demand will lead to higher prices. Since illegal immigrants are typically in the market for "affordable" housing, this most significantly impacts those in the lower-income categories.
5. Illegal immigrants impact traffic. Again, we have a fixed supply of roads. The more drivers on them, the slower traffic moves. I live outside Los Angeles, and dread driving on LA freeways during peak travel times. Obviously, there are a number of reasons why roads are crowded, but adding more drivers in the form of illegal immigrants doesn't help the situation.
6. Illegal immigrants cost tax dollars in the form of social services and education. While illegals cannot typically obtain welfare, they can obtain emergency health care (it's illegal to refuse anyone) and education for their children, both those born here and those who also illegally entered the US. I have seen estimates of up to $1,700 per year per household as the tax cost of social services for illegal aliens.
I am aware that the low labor cost of illegal immigration keeps costs down in some industries, which results in lower prices for consumers. Most studies indicate this cost savings is fairly small. Even if it weren't, however, I would happily pay more for agricultural products and other similar items if I knew that the workers were working legally and receiving a fair and living wage for their labor.
Obviously, deporting 12 to 20 MILLION illegal immigrants is not practical. I would be in favor of much stricter enforcement on employers who hire illegal immigrants. Mandatory jail terms for managers who hire them, and crippling fines, such as $1 million per day per illegal immigrant. As long as fines of a few thousand here and there are levied on offenders -- less than the savings realized by hiring illegals -- it will just be considered a cost of doing business. Once employers won't hire illegal immigrants, the main reason for being in the US would be removed. Hopefully they would return to their home countries, and work towards making those countries better places to live.
I am opposed to a temporary guest worker program. The "bracero" program in the 1940s - 1960s was an abject failure. We created an exploitable underclass. Other nations have also learned that "temporary" guest worker programs are anything but temporary. Workers do not want to go home once they have had a taste of the lifestyle to be had in a First World economy.
I'm also opposed to any sort of amnesty for those illegals already here. We should not reward illegal behavior. Illegals currently here should be punished for their crimes (tax evasion, identify theft, etc.) and should have to leave the US before being allowed to re-apply to immigrate. The government does not forgive me if I break the law, nor should illegal immigrants be forgiven.
I know that others will disagree with my position. Let's keep it respectful!
If this thread already exists elsewhere, my apologies. I didn't see it when I searched.
I'll start....
I personally believe that illegal immigration is harmful to the United States, for the following reasons:
1. Illegal immigrants flout US immigration law. As an orderly society, our laws should be meaningful and respected. If a law is wrong, it should be changed, not ignored.
2. Illegal immigrants commit a variety of other crimes once in the US, secondary to their illegal status. They drive without insurance and drivers licenses, work "under the table" without paying taxes and work on falsified identities (including mine, I have come to find out). This doesn't even take into account commonplace criminal offenses that are committed both by illegal immigrants and other elements of society.
3. Illegal immigrants drive down wages for lower-skilled workers. Those who were born in the US, or legal immigrants with marginal skills, are finding it difficult to obtain jobs because illegal immigrants will work for less. In areas with high illegal immigration, such as California, it is becoming impossible for an American high-school dropout to earn a living wage in fields such as construction, janitorial or factory work, as these jobs almost always go to illegal immigrants at much lower wages than an American would accept.
4. Illegal immigrants raise housing costs, particularly for lower-income Americans. Supply and demand tell us that given a fairly fixed supply, which is the case in most areas, an increased demand will lead to higher prices. Since illegal immigrants are typically in the market for "affordable" housing, this most significantly impacts those in the lower-income categories.
5. Illegal immigrants impact traffic. Again, we have a fixed supply of roads. The more drivers on them, the slower traffic moves. I live outside Los Angeles, and dread driving on LA freeways during peak travel times. Obviously, there are a number of reasons why roads are crowded, but adding more drivers in the form of illegal immigrants doesn't help the situation.
6. Illegal immigrants cost tax dollars in the form of social services and education. While illegals cannot typically obtain welfare, they can obtain emergency health care (it's illegal to refuse anyone) and education for their children, both those born here and those who also illegally entered the US. I have seen estimates of up to $1,700 per year per household as the tax cost of social services for illegal aliens.
I am aware that the low labor cost of illegal immigration keeps costs down in some industries, which results in lower prices for consumers. Most studies indicate this cost savings is fairly small. Even if it weren't, however, I would happily pay more for agricultural products and other similar items if I knew that the workers were working legally and receiving a fair and living wage for their labor.
Obviously, deporting 12 to 20 MILLION illegal immigrants is not practical. I would be in favor of much stricter enforcement on employers who hire illegal immigrants. Mandatory jail terms for managers who hire them, and crippling fines, such as $1 million per day per illegal immigrant. As long as fines of a few thousand here and there are levied on offenders -- less than the savings realized by hiring illegals -- it will just be considered a cost of doing business. Once employers won't hire illegal immigrants, the main reason for being in the US would be removed. Hopefully they would return to their home countries, and work towards making those countries better places to live.
I am opposed to a temporary guest worker program. The "bracero" program in the 1940s - 1960s was an abject failure. We created an exploitable underclass. Other nations have also learned that "temporary" guest worker programs are anything but temporary. Workers do not want to go home once they have had a taste of the lifestyle to be had in a First World economy.
I'm also opposed to any sort of amnesty for those illegals already here. We should not reward illegal behavior. Illegals currently here should be punished for their crimes (tax evasion, identify theft, etc.) and should have to leave the US before being allowed to re-apply to immigrate. The government does not forgive me if I break the law, nor should illegal immigrants be forgiven.
I know that others will disagree with my position. Let's keep it respectful!
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