boy do I need your help!

hello everyone,
This winter I will be working in northern Alberta running a peice of equipment hours from anywhere in the middle of the bush. It will be dark for a good portion of the day cause I am so far north and the machine will be working 24 hrs a day. It will be very cold (-60 C on occations) and in the fall and spring it will be wet. I need a light that I can use when there is a break down, or other emergencies like spotting awakend bears or anything else that will happen.. I have an HDS EDC 60 for small stuff so am looking for something powerful and tough. It will need to be able to shine through dumping snow and sleet. I would like the option of rechargable but able to use primaries without modification. A decent runtime would be good also. What should I get? I was thinking along the lines of Surefire considering all the m series. I would have to figure out how to change over to use rechargables and be able to switch back easily. good thought? Other options? Opinions? Thanks for your help. This is exciting for me (and it will be a tax write off!! guilt free)

Well, It is going to be hard to get everything you want in one light, for good throw you will have to sacrafice runtime, But I would buy 2 lights, one for distance spotting and one for breakdowns and close up work, I am a diesel mechanic by trade and This is what I do, My choices would be for the distance light a Streamlight Ultrastinger kit, It is rechargable and comes with both the ac and dc chargers, Also I would buy the kit that came with the spare battery that charges at the same time the light charges, that way you will have about 3 hours of continuios bright light, now for the breakdowns and other work, I would either get a headlamp thar ran on cr123 cells, that way if it is cold you will not affect performance of the light cr123 withstand cold alot better, Or if you want a light I can recommend the the Nuwai QIII, or the fenix P1, there is a price diference but I have been using the QIII for 9 months now and it is a damn good little light, But others will have there won opinion and this is what I would get, Also Nuwai makes a damn nice headlamp that runs on Cr123 cells,
Jon

Hi breu, although I don't have one (yet), my first thought was a surefire 10x dominator. I dont know about the ni-cad rechargeable in those temps though. This will be an interesting thread I believe, as folks with much more expertise than I chime in.

Because of the temperature, you're pretty much limited to Lithium batteries. You might look at some of the multi cell lights or lights powered by a 18650. I think fifthunit.com has some new Asian lights including a K2 that should be quite powerful and may come close to suiting your needs.

Hello breu

To use a light in this temperatures is realy hard, not only using the light.

Since you own the HDS, there is no compelling need for another narrow tasks light (except as a backup).

Do you know at this moment, how long you will have to use the bright light at the air (-temperatures)?

Forgot NiCad-cells, nimh's and also LiIons, if the cells are in the light and the task are longer than about 10 minutes at -60 degrees. Perhaps only 10 minutes are too long (only speculations).

I would prefer a reliable and sure solution, that the batts will work when you need the light.

The only idea I have at the moment is a light with a seperate batt-container connected by a wire. So you will carry the batts at your body, underneath the cloths.

There are a few headlamps with this configurations, Stenlight, Silva L1. But they are not bright enough for your requests.

A great light could be the Barbolight U-15 with a canister for the batts. Runtime of 7hours and a bright Quadlux diving light. It's extremly robust and since it's deepth rated to 200m, water and snow should no problem. It's not cheap but for your tasks I would'nt make compromises. Take a look:

http://www.barbolight.com/


Good luck and best regards

_____
Tom

breu said:

hello everyone,
...I would like the option of rechargable but able to use primaries without modification...

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The only immediate solution (that I can think of) that contains it all in one package for your requirement is the Wolf-Eyes lights. Their rechargeable packages run off of Pila rechargeables, and the lights are also made for standard 123's.

But along those lines, I guess you could just buy a seperate Pila package for whatever other light you choose.

If you do decide on Wolf-Eyes, however, track down Mike@PTS here at the forums. https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/107833)

I forgot to suggest, there could be a problem too with bright incans and their heat on the lens. In this coldness a lot of materials will be chapped/brittle.

So a little hit and a glaslens could brake. This should be the ideal conditions for leds. No heattransfer to the lens, only to the heatsink and cold air for cooling.

Best regards

____
Tom

I think you've ought to go for an SLA powered spotlight. The SLA's presumably work in cold weather, since cars manage to start up in it.

paulr said:

I think you've ought to go for an SLA powered spotlight. The SLA's presumably work in cold weather, since cars manage to start up in it.

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I stuck my Thor outside when we had a blizzard in NYC. I wanted to melt a snowbank, but it lost power after a few minutes, maybe 10-15 minutes. I was disappointed. I wonder how the SLAs in cars manage to work in cold weather?

I would say you want a light that gets HOT, to keep the batteries warm, so, I'd say the Surefire M3/M3T or Pila GL3 (a fantastic alternative to the M3 if you don't need added shock-resistance... you're not mounting it to an AR are you?) might be good choices. Both will easily take rechargeables without modification, though the exact size slips my mind at the moment. I believe it's two "600S"-size cells but there's another name for them as well...

The 9P or C2 may be better, as they have less surface area to drain away heat from contact with snow, however... (they'll also work fine with the aforementioned rechargeable solution).

I agree with everything jon1996 said. You already have a great light in the U60. A headlamp using the same 123A battery would be good. One example is the Streamlight Argo HP.

The SL Ultrastinger is a very powerful light, especially useful outdoors (being incandescent). The ac/dc recharger kit and spare batteries ensure you've always got power. No it won't run on primaries, but it would be very unlikely to need that capability, plus you'd have two other backup lights in that rare case.

Surefire unfortunately doesn't offer rechargeable solutions for most of their incandescent lights.

The Wolf-Eyes recommendation seems a possible alternative.

The Ultrastinger is nicad powered, not so great in cold weather. I hate li ion but this is one situation where it works better than anything else. I also think if you have an X lumen light and want to back it up with something more powerful, it's not worth bothering with any less than 3X or 4X lumens. So the HDS U60 should be backed up with a 200+ lumen light and an Ultrastinger doesn't really make it. A Mag60 or Mag85 would qualify if the cold weather performance is deemed good enough. Another approach (already mentioned by Long John) would be a light powered by a battery belt that's kept warm under the user's parka. Ready-made battery belts are available from Bescor and others, for use with portable video lights.

Someone want to do a cold weather test with the Amondotech HID lantern?

I think a Thor is not supposed to have too much more than that 10-15 minutes of runtime even in warm weather, so I'm not sure Carrot's experience was an actual cold weather failure. Some degradation in cold weather is to be expected.

I was under the impression, however, that the Thor is supposed to have a runtime of 60 minutes.

I know one time I was out in the yard working on a truck at my job and there was about 3 inches of snow on the ground and it was 20 degrees, I layed my ultra stinger in the snow and it ran for at least 45 mins, and never got dimmer, then I used it for another 30 min or so till it started getting dim, I have had good luck eith it and its little brother the stinger,
Jon

carrot said:

I stuck my Thor outside when we had a blizzard in NYC. I wanted to melt a snowbank, but it lost power after a few minutes, maybe 10-15 minutes. I was disappointed. I wonder how the SLAs in cars manage to work in cold weather?

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Good observation Carrot.

I've experienced poor performance with lithium lights in temps nowhere near as cold as he mentions. A lithium-battery incan light failed me in cold weather, at about -15F. It failed to light, beyond making the filament glow very dimly. Fresh batteries, equally cold, did nothing to help. After it was warmed up inside a sleeping bag for about an hour, it ran for a while, then began dimming as it gradually cooled down.

He specified -60C, which is beyond very cold: -72.8F!

That's nearly 105 degrees of frost. (Degrees of frost equals degrees below freezing.) It doesn't *ever* get that cold in the lower 48 states. (Maybe on the very highest mountaintops in the dead of winter, but I doubt it.)

I don't think lithium cells, either primary or secondary, will work at that temp, at least not well.

I think the easiest solution is a headlamp with a separate battery pack, worn under clothes to stay warm. The Stenlight and the PT Yukon Extreme, come to mind. Petzl and Black Diamond also make some headlamps that would qualify.

Lead-acid batteries, in good condition, can deliver an amazing amount of power even in very cold temps. It might be worth checking the operating temp range with some of the old, reliable industrial headlamp makers, like Koehler. They may have something available that will operate in those temps. If they have something that'll work, it will be heavy and expensive.

breu said:

I have an HDS EDC 60 for small stuff so am looking for something powerful and tough. It will need to be able to shine through dumping snow and sleet. I would like the option of rechargable but able to use primaries without modification. A decent runtime would be good also. What should I get?

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MAXABEAM!!!!

We have tested our U-04 and its batteries for ATEX certification. A part of this certification is "Thermal Endurance to Heat and Cold". The flashlights are during two weeks in the "Oven" cycling from 60ºC to -40ºC continuosly. The batteries are Li-ION, and the units were aproved.

We have tested the lights to -50ºC, and they still worked very well. I also kept a flashlight and his fully charged battery two months at -25ºC, and the runtime was not affected. Brightness is affected at first moment, but as batteries gets warmer it increases.

I think a LED flashlight is a better choice for many reasons:

- Reliability. You don't want to need to change bulbs with your naked bulbs on that weather.
-Bulbs project IR / heat, they are heating the air. LEDs dissipate heat through the flashlight, therefore they can keep batteries at higher temperatures. Maybe a neoprene jacket over the light should help.

Any case the experience of the arctic explorers told us that separate battery holders being kept warm by their own body is the best solution.

But again commercial solutions for that are headlamps, which are not as bright as the lights you mentioned.

My suggestion based on the lights we manufacture is a U-15 with an external battery pack option, not exactly our K-15, because you don't need the battery pack on a waterproof case, but on your pocket. A 4-6 Li-ION 18650 pack should do the job of many hours of light. Our U-15 can work with CR123 primaries with a dummy battery, for emergencies.

Feel free to make any questions.

Javier

paulr said:

The Ultrastinger is nicad powered, not so great in cold weather. I hate li ion but this is one situation where it works better than anything else...

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Excellent point. Many rechargeable flashlights use NiCd, not good in very cold weather.

Eveready operating temp spec for their lithium CR123A primaries is down to -40C (which is also -40F, coincidentally): http://data.energizer.com/PDFs/123.pdf

Tenergy gives a -20C low temp limit for their Li-Ion batteries: http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=78

This implies lithium primaries have better low temp performance than Li-Ion rechargeables, and vastly better than NiCd.

Maybe a powerful compact light, kept inside your parka would work? I was thinking incandescent due to the better outdoor color discrimination, but maybe due to the extreme cold, LED might be better. However even a Luxeon V LED has only so much output -- it will never overpower a powerful incandescent.

Maybe a Surefire L6, running on 2x 17500 Li-Ion, with CR123A primaries as another option?

why don't you go for an AE Powerlight. Its a 24 watt HID rechargable flashlight with 2 hours of run time. recharges fast, has a rechargable Lithium Ion battery so the battery will perform well in cold conditions. Bulb doesn't get as hot as an incan so you wouldn't have to worry about breaking the lense. The light throws very very far and since the light color is more of a blue/white, I think it would penetrate the snow much better than a yellow incan would. Only downfall is you can't put other batteries in it but I don't think that would be a bad thing. You could also purchase extra batteries for it for hours and hours and hours of run time. It even comes in a handy carring case that would also protect it from the weather. Bulb has a 2000 hour life to it also. Plus the bulb is not as breakable as an incan bulb. Very sturdy and durable light that would perform well in harsh conditions for a long time.

Maybe you could achieve good area illumination in case of a break down by using a carbide lamp? It shouldn't care about the temperatures.

chrwe said:

Maybe you could achieve good area illumination in case of a break down by using a carbide lamp? It shouldn't care about the temperatures.

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Hey chrwe.

Carbide lamps require liquid water to operate. Adjusting the water flow to the carbide with a valve is how they are regulated.

Although they can be used in sub-freezing temps, by adding anti-freeze to the water, it's a PITA. I've done this successfully down to maybe -25C, but I wouldn't want to try it at -60C. I also managed to break the regulator valves on a couple of carbide lamps in bitter cold conditons.