Overhand or Underhand Grip?

What are the advantages of either grip?

Movies from the 50's, 60's and 70's show the characters, especially the police, hold their flashlights underhanded with their thumb pointing forward. Then somewhere in the 80's everyone started holding flashlights overhanded, with their thumbs pointing toward the back.

Was it because of the advent of Maglites which make better weapons when held overhanded, or possibly because Maglites balance better when held overhanded?

My two cents: You'll see cops using that hold now for several reasons. With smaller flashlights, aka surefire, the tailcap switch makes the most sense with this grip. With the heavier, larger flashlights, aka maglite, he can rest the weight on his shoulder, not making his wrist do the work, and he's poised to bring it crashing down onto your skull.

Joe S.

I think the indirect reason is determined by ergonomics. If the button is in front, ala Maglite, you push it with your thumb and hold overhanded. If the button is in back, ala Surefire et. al., you have to hold "underhanded" -- that is, you use a Harries grip.

But, why did tactical flashlight makers choose to put the button in the back in the first place? I believe the answer is because the Harries grip provides more support for the firearm hand than the old-style overhanded grip -- not that the Harries grip provides all that much support either. Massad Ayoob proposed a slightly modified overhand grip that works a lot better for me for Maglites, and provides plenty of gun-hand support. But my favorite hold by far is the Roger technique, which is useable on Surefires that have a cut-out for a pinch-grip on the light, like the Z2, M2, etc. This provides lots of gun-hand support, holds the flashlight securely, and really locks the gun and flashlight together, so that wherever you point your flashlight, you know that's right where the bullets will go.

Joe

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Talmadge:
...you have to hold "underhanded" -- that is, you use a Harries grip... I believe the answer is because the Harries grip provides more support for the firearm hand than the old-style overhanded grip...But my favorite hold by far is the Roger technique, which is useable on Surefires that have a cut-out... that wherever you point your flashlight, you know that's right where the bullets will go.

Joe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joe and KT,

Because of super strict gun laws in my city, I've only had contact with handguns in Colorado, but never shot one. A deputy there offered to choose appropriate weapons for me and my girlfriend and give us lessons in "combat shooting". We were tempted but figured "what's the use?" since we can't use it where we live.

Nevertheless, I intend eventually to take lessons, perhaps when I "retire" and have some time for myself. I've always heard about the "Harries grip", the "Rogers Surefire grip", Etc Etc. and never knew what they were, and found very few illustrations when I searched the net.

From the little that I gleaned I improvised my "pretend Brightnorm grip": ASP Triad in left hand supporting (imaginary) handgun in right with L hand angled up so "shooting hand" had support from underneath and laterally through pressure against back of left hand. It actually felt quite stable. But when I tried to coordinate the two hands, carefully sighting along my "gun" (my extended right index finger} and then clicking on the ASP, I was almost never able to immediately or instinctively aim the light where my "gun" was pointing.

I realize that this excercise must appear quite pathetic to you two "shooters", but I am genuinely interested in this subject. Many of my colleagues and fellow citizens in this city abhor guns, really hate them. I never really understood this since I've always felt that the way a gun is used is a reflection of the training, philosophy, personality and purpose of the person who uses it, and to create a blanket denial of gun use for everyone in a "Democracy", or in any political unit of it, whether a town, city, county or state really is a denial of adult responsibility, not to mention interference with a constitutional right, the so-called 2nd amendment "militia" notwithstanding.

Also, I must confess that I find many guns very aesthetically pleasing, despite their deadly potential.

Sorry I got on the soapbox, back to topic:
Any advice on, or illustrations of how the various handgun grips are integrated with flashlight use will be much appreciated.

Also, if you have any thoughts on handgun possession in a large city, or general comments on the responsibility of owning such a weapon, training, etc, I'd be most receptive to them.

I hope we're not shifted to the "Cafe" or some other lonely place, since this thread is highly relevant to flashlight use.

Best regards,
Brightnorm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
... I hope we're not shifted to the "Cafe" or some other lonely place, ...

Best regards,
Brightnorm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brightnorm !! "My" beautiful Café ......

Inconsolably,

lightlover

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *something ridiculous ?:
Brightnorm !! "My" beautiful Café ......

Inconsolably,

lightlover

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LL,

Slightly confused. Was the name "The Cafe" your idea, is is this a literary reference? There's something that I'm not getting, but I'm not sure what it is.

Brightnorm

Thanks for posting the pics, K. Note that when used in conjunction with a handgun, the pic of the Rogers technique is a little misleading. Typically, instead if curling the ring and pinky fingers in on themselves, you'd wrap them around the gun hand, which lends a whole lot of support to that hand, and locks the light and gun together.

Looking forward to your description of a good technique for the M4. I have an M4, but don't have a firearm technique I like for it.

Joe

There is one important reason that I use the overhand method and only flashlights with tailcap buttons (duty use). Instant and failsafe orientation (finding the switch) each and everytime. This is important in a high stress dynamic situation. A light bezel down on your belt can be drawn and lit consistantly each and every time.

Clicky switches are bad as well for duty LEO carry. Imagine a darkened environment and when you light an area, you notice a "bad guy". You accidentally "click" the light to constant on as you attempt to move. Momentary and tailcap switches are a necessity in certain professions.

For normal non duty type situations, like walking at night etc, I use underhand and clicky switches for comfort.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kogatana:
...Gotta go. I don't even have the time to proofread this post...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, KT

As always, highly informative and much appreciated. I'll look forward to the Harries discussion, and I'm sure that I'm not the only Flashaholic to find this very interesting.

Best regards,
Brightnorm

Kogatana, two questions:

First, what's your take on weapon mounted lights? As a civilian, I have some concerns about needing to point the weapon in order to illuminate a not yet confirmed threat. Any thoughts?

Second, is there a good option for use of a non mounted light with a shotgun or rifle? I was wondering about a lantern style light with a thin non-slip grip that could be held under the fore-end. I'm thinking a semi-auto so wouldn't be concerned with trying to rack a slide while holding the light.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rodmeister:
What are the advantages of either grip?

Movies from the 50's, 60's and 70's show the characters, especially the police, hold their flashlights underhanded with their thumb pointing forward. Then somewhere in the 80's everyone started holding flashlights overhanded, with their thumbs pointing toward the back.

Older flashlights usually had "sliding" switches, push forward on, pull back off. You would hold it underhand so your thumb could flick the lamp off/on.

Was it because of the advent of Maglites which make better weapons when held overhanded, or possibly because Maglites balance better when held overhanded?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Current trend utilizes a technique where the light is held overhanded in conjunction with a firearm being in the other hand. Hands are placed together to help stabalize the weapon and also project the beam in the direction the weapon is pointed.

Two main reasons the Maglites are held overhanded. One is so that the index finger is allowed to operate the switch as a momentary on/off, but the main reason is to keep the Mag in a ready position to use as a impact weapon. Main reasoning behind the Mag's design was a sturdy durable dependable flashlight with good output. You hold it overhanded with index or middle finger operating the switch, and the battery compartment portion resting on your shoulder. Approach vehicle or subjects illuminating as neccessary. Subject makes violent move, overhand BASH!! The wide head also helps to keep secure grip so light can't slip out of the hand. This is an old cop's trick, the reason why some still use the mag's. I have talked to all kinds of retired cops from different states and they all stated this as the "proper" way to hold/use a 3 or 4 cell Mag. you have to keep in mind that in the past when things weren't as "politically correct" as they are today, techniques of apprehension and submission were different.

Also of note, in the days before all these new shooting w/light techniques, officers and soldiers were taught to hold the flashlight off to the side, away from their bodies to illuminate an area with the off hand while training their weapon towards to possible target area. Reason being that the light is a target easily seen in the dark and if shots are taken at it, it will be away from you, perhaps increasing the chances of the enemy missing you with their shots. Thats something I think alot of people don't think about. You go prowling around looking for someone in the dark illuminating the scenery, well it lets them know exactly where you are too, and also making you a target should they be using weapons that are far reaching.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brightnorm:
LL,
Slightly confused. Was the name "The Cafe" your idea, is is this a literary reference? There's something that I'm not getting, but I'm not sure what it is.

Brightnorm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, changing the name from Chit Chat to "the Café" was my idea. And in a free vote, (helped along by me bribing people with SF123's, and using heavy emotional blackmail), the motion was *overwhelmingly carried*.

And in my mind, I'm not the moderator there, but the proprietor of a Café, where people hang out for conversation and light refreshments.
I've kind of decorated and designed it, daydreaming about the comfortable seating offered, the excellent sound system, pictures of our Eminents on the walls, and a wide choice of colognes in the "restrooms".
Individual computer-controlled lighting for each table, resetting automatically by the computer's remote reading of each members info-glowring.

Every form of recharger is made available, all types of batteries are sold at cost, and there is a "lights library" where you can borrow lights to test for a week or so.

Everyone gets free credit, which I cheerfully write off each month, tearing up the account with a *wry smile*.

And then, you call it "some other lonely place".

Next time you pop in, you get your de-caffeineated cappuccino in a chipped cup !!

lightlover

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *something ridiculous ?:
Well, changing the name from Chit Chat to "the Café" was my idea....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lightlover,

Sorry it took me so long to respond to your descriptively engaging post. Nice imagery and mood.

Best regards,
Brightnorm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *something ridiculous ?:
bribing people with SF123's<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be happy and/or interested to know that those very 123's are still in use in my fist E2. The E2 that I use overhanded, of course. Afterall, if you aren't after style points, you probably shouldn't be using a SF.