Lumens ratings are out of control

I really dont know what to say about all the stated lumen outputs of all the lights out now. I have owned at some point or another over the past couple years many, many led flashlights. From Surefire l4,l2,l1 ombu in 3watt and 5watt to HDS, Fenix P1, Longbow and other less expensive knockoffs. I have also skimmed the surface on mods such as Mcapsules with t-bins and U-bins with different converter boards . To me the most impressive in the class of 2cell smaller lights was the SF L2. I have always compared everything else to that as a marker. Surefire to my knowledge is the only manufacturer who understates the output of their lights.

Nowadays I seem to be carrying a HDS B42/2cell with a U-bin 3watt I dropped in myself. now when I got this nice little light the Max setting did def. seem to be 40 lumens. I know it's noticeably briter now with the u-bin . though the beam is more of a flood , in brightness it is equivalent to my Longbow with 917ma conv and a ubin emitter. I also carry as a backup my P1 by Fenix. which is where this thread is going . Now I luv my P1 and for a 1cell tiny twist light it is bright!! especially with r123. BUT,,,, there is NOWAY the P1 is putting out 50-60 or 70 lumens and noway for 2 plus hrs. .

I was recently at a sports type outdoor store and they had a display of a recharegeable incandesent streamlight flashlight . the display stated the out put was somewhere in the range of 80-85 lumens. the recharge base indicated it was fully charged so me being a flashlight junky I always have to compare my lights to others whenever I can . well the streamlight was noticeably briter than my HDS, a more focused beam on the streamlight but def. more output also .

Now to put it all together , my P1 is brighter than my Hds on primary but my HDS on Max absolutley blows the P1 away . so if the Streamlight dominates my Hds on max. and it's listed at 80lumens which I think Streamlight is probably pretty accurate in their lumen output estimates , and my Hds dominates my P1 when on max then to me the P1 aint puttin out no 60 or 70 lumens. I think based on the comparison of the Hds and the Streamlight the HDS is possibly putting out 60 lumens on max , maybe (which is cool by me)
so the P1 being less bright can only really be doing maybe 40 lumens at best .

Now I know comparing 3watts to 5watts to Incandescents is like apples to oranges . the 5watt with 4 1.25 leds gives more of a wall of light which at close range is always more impressive thana more focused 3watt . plus the P1 has a smaller head/reflector than the HDS so it will be less impressive. alot of different factors but I still think everyone is fooling themselves with all the lumen output estimates on many different lights. My grlfriends son has a knock off made in China 3watt led light he got for maybe 20 or 30 bucks. the packaging stated 80lumens output. well of course I had to compare to what I was carrying (the HDS u-bin) . I decided to play a trick on him and when we lit up side by side i kept the HDS on primary . He chuckled and made some wise *** comment cause he knows I am into led lights as his light was definitely brighter than mine. then I clicked into Max and the HDS blew his light away no problem.

Dont get me wrong I luv my P1 and carry it in my 5th jeans pocket daily but I cannot fool myslef into fantasy land by thinking it puts out 70lumens!!!!

what do you all think are things spiralling out of control ??

It has always been like this.
Hype and BS claims make it difficult for the uneducated (read: non-flashaholic user) and he is easily deceived.
This is why I think a part of our mission is to spread the truth about all those claims.

Some other typical examples:
- 100.000 hour lifetime of the overdriven 5mm light
- excessive runtimes of LED lights when we all know they must have counted untill the last photon escapes ...
- claims of HA finish where non is there
- rating lights as electronically controlles (suggesting regulation) where there's just a resistor in the thing
- lumen ratings ... and the P1 isn't the wirst of the bunch. Typically bulb or LED lumens are cited as output ... but there are habits way worse than that.

In the end ... we should knwo the truth here on CPF ( I hope), but the rest of the world doesn't.
AND ... it is difficult to come up with real numbers as we do not have an IS.

bernie


P.S.: I am not talking about the P1 ... I am looking at the big picture

I love my P1, but I have measured its brightness or runtime. The P1 on primaries is bright and has an almost totally flat runtime plot. FlashlightReviews.com said they measured it at 1 hour 47 minutes to %50 of initial brightness. http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_p1.htm

The P1 is very different on rechargeables. It starts out very bright and then immediately the brightness starts to dim. If you measured the lumens in the first second or two it would be very very bright. I think some people have innocently combined the best parts of primary and rechargeable measurements.

Dont get me wrong I like my P1 alot and it is great for the size . I dont think you will find a brighter miniature light like this anywhere else. of course like anything else in commerce the world is promised but rarely delivered. not naive here but it just seems like it has gone beyond the sales hype to peoplpe actually convincing themselves they have something they do not.

I totally agree with the stated topic. I don't believe lumen numbers anymore except for a select number of manufacturers and some few modders here on the forum (read--someone who actually has an integrating sphere) Too many manufacturers just quote specs from the LED manufacturers, numbers obtained under ideal environmental conditions and discount losses from optics/reflector/lens. The promiscuous use of the term Lumen has severely diluted the meaning of a very exacting unit of measure.

You are all absolutely correct, but, whose lumen numbers are we talking about? Anyone is entitled to an opinion or lumen guess, but at the end of the day it is up to us to digest the real numbers. It is unfair to 4sevens since they state lumen output of the P1 at 50-55 lumens. That is not out of whack. HDS lights are also reasonably rated, and so are Peak lights. And Quickbeam's flashlight reviews are pretty dead on too.
I think we should differentiate and give proper credit to the manufacturers-dealers as I think they are fairly accurate in their numbers.

luminata said:

...the P1 aint puttin out no 60 or 70 lumens. I think based on the comparison of the Hds and the Streamlight the HDS is possibly putting out 60 lumens on max , maybe (which is cool by me)
so the P1 being less bright can only really be doing maybe 40 lumens at best .

Click to expand...

What are you talking about? No one ever said the P1 would put out 70 lumens. Although some of the latest P1s from 4Sevens do put out ~55 lumens, which makes it tantalizingly close to the HDS at a way sweeter price.

Thank God for sites like this one and Flashlightreviews is all I can say.

luminata said:

BUT,,,, there is NOWAY the P1 is putting out 50-60 or 70 lumens and noway for 2 plus hrs. .

Click to expand...

I aggree with daveman.
True, many manufacturers use the best possible or ideal circumstances for their ratings or just use the "paper" stats. I think many foreign ones sometimes lie outright. However, the P1 is rated at 55 lumens and 1 hour 45 minutes to 50% brightness. Given the usual exaggerations, it probably is almost 50 lumens. It can briefly go higher with RCR123's, but that doesn't last long. Are you using RCR123's? Is that why you are expecting higher lumen outputs? I wonder what the output of the HDS is with RCR123's.

I rely on places like Flashlight Reviews also. I always try to find info on future purchases as I don't rely on the stated numbers.

My rambling was in noway meant as a put down to 4sevens. thats where I got my P1 and he is a nice guy. I used the P1 as an example and compare it to other lights I own only because of the info I gleen from this forum on these specific lights and since I have them in my hands . The P1 gets alot of conversation time on these forums as well it should , it is a great light. I have seen posts on here multiple times about the P1 reaching 50 plus lumens and I was only hoping someone could put it in perspective for me. I know with the HDS Basic42 you are getting 40 lumens in stock setup. after all the talk about being able to drop in a different led relatively easy I decided to do it with a U-bin emitter. now I know I am still getting at least 40 lumens out of my B-42 and I think it is actually considerably brighter with the u-bin and the 2 cell extender. But I would never consider it to be above 60 lumens now , this would be impossible based on what others have stated about the HDS b-42 , its electronics and how it will behave with a stronger Led . Even the creator of the HDS lights stated at best you might get a 5-10% increase at best but to not expect much. I think I got lucky but still not that lucky. so I cant see how a P1 if it was putting out say 50 lumens with a r123 would be noticeably less brite than my HDS on Max unless my P1 is putting out 50lumens and my modded HDS is some kind of superfreak and outputting 80lumens (NOT)

Well,

Flashlightreviews.com gives the P1 38.9 Lumen (28.00x1.39; see the math on his site), which is about 2 thirds of manufacturer's claim.

Just another example:
AE Light shorty. These lights have been reviewed favourably by many on this forum as being very bright.
Yet, AE states 1300 Lumen:
http://www.aelight.com/portable/powerlight/pl24_short.htm

but Flashlightreviews only comes to 556-665 Lumen (depending on which multiplying factor you choose for HID), which is barely half:
http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/aelight_pl24.htm

So, you never have enough information to know the exact numbers. I tend to believe the Lumen estimates and compariative brightnesses given by Doug, though. Comparison beamshots are also very instructive in my view.

My two cents.

Kees

The claim was always 55 lumens for the P1 I thought. I've never heard anyone claim it puts out 70 lumens. And, it has been stated here many times that the actual numbers were much closer to 45, which sounds about right to me.

well, that makes a bit more sense to me . I would say about 35 is more accurate. Or I could have gotten the short stick on my P1 and have a lame duck putting out less. that would correspond with the comparisons against my HDS in a more realistic way.

X Racer I've seen plenty people on CPF claiming 70-80 lumens out of a P1 on a fresh RCR123. Fenix themselves used to state it on their website too, but must have had a slight attack of conscience and removed it

Luminata I agree with you 100%, my P1 is not as bright as my B42.

I try not to give too much weight to any one measurement. Together lux, lumens, and beamshots give a fairly good summary of a beam. Of those three, lumens are the most likely to be exaggerated. Lux, and beamshots can be easily replicated by independent observers. Any lies about these two will quickly be found and made public. Lumens are easy to fudge. Just give the bulb lumens with no explanation, or send it to a friendly lab. Not many of us have an integrated sphere to check these things. I much prefer the system over at flashlightreviews.com. I would trust the results at that site of overall brightness much more than advertised claims of lumens. In my opinion, Fenix lumens claims are more realistic most other companies. To my eyes, and I could be wrong, the Fenix P1 appears to be brighter than an HDS 60 when the P1 has a rechargeable.

Neither of my P1s are anywhere near my U60GT on high when running a new RCR123. My P1s are new ones too...

Luxeon lottery to some extent I'm sure...

You guys reminded me of this light:
http://ledmuseum.candlepower.us/fourth/10klm.htm
Now thats Lumens ratings out of control !!!

So it would seem my P1 is probably average and maybe my upgraded B42 is doing pretty good , close to a B60 now with the ugrade? alot is personal perspective with output also . I will have to start checking that review site mentioned in this thread. One thing that makes the Surefires worth the high price tag is that at least you know what you are getting from the get go . maybe I will go back to them again after being lured into the extensive varied market of Fenix,HDS and customizing on my own . I miss my L4 and wish I hadnt sold it. I could use it with my 1cell E1 body or with 2cell it was a small very brite lite . yeah maybe I will .....