Winter and Hid bulbs?

I just moved back to Nebraska from New Mexico, just in time for winter. I like taking my hid on night walks, but nights here in January are a little colder than the desert. Will temperatures colder than 5 degrees f. be harmful or make bulbs more fragil?

Also, I usually use the nicad rechargable pack with the light. How do nicads do with cold weather? I do not believe anyone makes a rechargable lithium C size batt, but would be interested of knowing if someone does.

Thanks for the help.

woodrow said:

I just moved back to Nebraska from New Mexico, just in time for winter. I like taking my hid on night walks, but nights here in January are a little colder than the desert. Will temperatures colder than 5 degrees f. be harmful or make bulbs more fragil?

Also, I usually use the nicad rechargable pack with the light. How do nicads do with cold weather? I do not believe anyone makes a rechargable lithium C size batt, but would be interested of knowing if someone does.

Thanks for the help.

Click to expand...

I personally avoid NiCad like the plague anymore..
The alternatives do so much better. Nicads will leak easily and rarely can you use them for long without fighting memory issues.

The NIMh batteries will give better performance and longevity without the memory issues the Nicad. The only negative it that their shelf life is a bit sucky...but with a decent charger.. just leave them on the charger when you can.

LiIon is definately the sweetest because they have wonderful shelf life and amazing efficiency.. But NiMh probrably will deliver a more powerful punch per AH of battery for very high drain devices, but the LiIon can hold more AH for its weight due to its efficiency.
I too prefer LiIon for almost every application.

The only Lithium I could find was 3.6 volts and primary.

I haven't noticed the Lithium in 1.5 volt C cells sorry.. I guess they don't exist yet? here

Thanks for checking. I would love it if UK had a lithium recharge pack for the lc100. As of yet they dont. I usually walk for an hour. Thun shut the light off. When I get home, I will just point it at a wall and let it burn for another hour and a half until the light gets dim and purple.

I have done this about 60 times now with no problems. I hope this is the best way to take care of a nicad. Right now I get an hour and fortyfive minutes of bright white light before it starts to turn purple. It is nice to know that there is some warning (40 min) before the light goes out.

Thanks again.

Dear Windstrings,

First, your link to the battery information website was very informative and I have added it to my bookmarks. Your assistance with Woodrow will be needed: see below.


Next, Woodrow, perhaps some of the addicts on this Forum can inject you with some "stuff" and get you hyped for one of the new high-powered units with a more modern battery and high output that will penetrate the darkest Nebraska night.

I have gone for my "constitutional" after dark here in Pennsylvania last Winter and found no problem with my X990 using NiMH batteries down to about 15-20 F. Each of them is rated to about 70 minutes, so they get charged immediately upon my return, and I am not concerned with memory.

This winter I am using the 75 W XeVision BB with LiIon batteries, and I will see if there is any issue with the cold. There was no heat problem during the summer, so now continues the climate testing.

You may be pleasantly surprised at what the "superlights" can do for you, especially since you mentioned that you go outside for a full hour and really sound like you depend on that light. You NEED more POWER. Your smaller lights will just not make it; trust us. More is better.

Remember, you are in the Home of the Flashaholics, and there is no turning back. Resistance is futile.

All Hope Abandon Ye who enter Here.
-The Inferno, Dante Aligheri

-Harvey K.

frogs3 said:

Dear Windstrings,

Your assistance with Woodrow will be needed: see below.

Next, Woodrow, perhaps some of the addicts on this Forum can inject you with some "stuff" and get you hyped for one of the new high-powered units with a more modern battery and high output that will penetrate the darkest Nebraska night.

Click to expand...

Ha!.. thats funny!.... Well everyone seems to have different needs, passions and pocketbooks....
I'll just tell you my testimony of how I got sucked ..[font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]into buying 900.00 worth of flashlight!....

Before a month ago.. the coolest light I had was the Inova T4 LiIon, has about 100 lumens output and comes with charger etc and has a nice throw... I thought it was the "cats Meow".

Realizing 100 lumens was awesome.. I started looking for lights again after giving it a rest for a couple of years... just to see what was out thier... kinda looking to see what the 5 or 6 watt LED's may be like... well while enquiring, I stumbled upon the AE 24Watt with its 1300 lumens for 349.00!... I thought... OMG!.... 13 X as bright as my T4?..I was lured into spending only 3.5 times as much as I spent for my Inova to get 13X as much light!.... with a bulb that last 10 times longer than halogen...
I felt like that was practically as good as LED! .....I was sold.....

but then while talking to the owner of the store and asking him the options of whats out there.. before I ordered, I found out about the X990 with its 3200 lumens for 399.00... now I was about to crap my drawers and salivating all over the place... I'm thinking 50.00 more to get 2.5X more lumens than the AE... well certainly!

So I ordered it and when I turned on the X990 I was flat out blown away with the brightness and the throw. It lit up the world it seemed at that time.... my other light was only a candle compared to it.

Well to make this long story shorter.. I returned it because of a startup problem I had and not particularly being fond of NiMH, and while scanning all of CPF and google, I decided upon the Xevision 50W with its 5600 lumens for twice the money.. with an upgrade ability to go to 8500 lumens with its 75 watt ability!.... now your holding the sun in your hands... no kidding.. everything you point it at becomes daylight and if your close, it "feels" like the sun!

So as many folks here on cpf.. I did not make a one time conscious decision to spend 900.00... it just kinda evolved... like a shark feeding frenzy... the more I dwelled on it, the more I was sucked in.....

But no kidding.. its too much light for most applications.. but if your in wide open spaces and want to see God..... its awesome!
[/font]

Ah, NiCd ... the second-oldest rechargable chemistry that everyone loves to beat up on. NiCd is probably the most durable chemistry out there. Unlike NiMH and general li-ion/poly cells, it likes deep discharge, and is generally more rugged. It certainly lacks the capacity of the others, but 20C discharge (3 minutes from 100% to flat) is doable with most NiCd cells. NiCd was the chemistry of choice for the 150W hotwire USL. NiCd charging electronics are less complex than NiMH, much more so that the lithium chemistries. Beat up NiCd day in, day out, and it keeps on going - unlike the more sensitive NiMH and Li chemistries.

Ever wonder why power tools skipped NiMH and took their sweet time adopting lithium-ion? NiMH couldn't perform well enough and it took quite some time for lithium-ion to evolve to the point that it can supply the necessary instantaneous power and survive enough charge/discharge cycles.

Simplicity comes with a price - power density is lower than all comers save lead-acid. It needs to be fully discharged after every recharge to minimize memory effect. It doesn't like cold temperatures (not that NiMH is clear of that issue).

Specialized version of li-poly are beginning to exceed the discharge capabilities of NiCd, but those require very careful handling and are a bit too big to fit into a maglite or other common flashlight.

Anyway ... back to the matter at hand. NiMH are pretty good for most flashlight applications since power density is typically the main concern and discharges are typically within what NiMH can typically handle. Li-ion and li-poly offer greater runtimes, but cost signifigantly more than NiMH and are typically more difficult to use.

idleprocess said:

Ah, NiCd ... the second-oldest rechargable chemistry that everyone loves to beat up on.

Click to expand...

I rarely see and products in the hardward stores or electronic stores that have NiCad.. unless they are really old and have never been upgraded.

NiCad was cool for its time, but a product that has wonderful characteristics "only" under perfect lab conditions and not for real practicle life is not much use.

For specilized application that you are willing to maintain and control, then NiCad may be the best, but for use like my own that may put down a toy for 6 months "because I get busy" but then I have that need to use it.. maybe a last minute thought or plan, or I'm working on something and realize "Hey that light would be really nice right now"... what good is it if the batteries are dead because they have sat for 6 months?

You may say, you should have left them on the charger, but then they wouldn't last.. they would be loaded with memory?

thats what I mean about practicle life... I don't have time nor the energy to baby sit batteries all the time so that when I'm ready to use them they will work.

Even in the old days when I had no choice, I still didn't have time.
I had one 5 cell light and one 6 cell that both held D cell batteries. I spent big bucks back then getting NiCads just to have them leak and drain themselves so far they didnt' want to charge again without a kick start.
It seemed every time I wanted to use my light, it was a total guess as to how much runtime I would have before it died.... whether I charged it or not... to me, thats a unreliable worthless battery when you can't depend upon it or at the least "predict" what it will do.

Sorry, I'm not a battery expert.. I'm just a real person who lives a real life.
It sure seems a waste to have to charge and waste the energy of a battery over and over just to keep it "useable".
Where they shine is their ability to discharge and accept a charge in large volumes of Amps without burning up.

NiMH has some of the same problems.. but at least memory is not one of them, but their shelf life really stinks!

I really think the LiIon technology will overtake the scene for the immediate forseeable future... especially since they are improving them yet more and more.

I expect soon you will rarely hear the word ?
"NiCad" anymore.

I really think the only reason they were on the scene at all is that thats all we had to choose from in a cheap marketable form.

You sound very knowledgable in batteries and I'm guessing thats why you can appreciate the properites of NiCad so well, but for us common folk with common uses.. its not too good.

NiCd is definitely on the way out. You really have to look for NiCd's in consumer sizes - the only place I see them anymore is Fry's electronics. They're still readily available from specialty retailers and electronics suppliers.

Li-ion for cordless power tools is a recent phoenomenon, but I expect those will be limited to the top end for several years - the charge/discharge/safety electronics are a bit involved and the newer chemistries that can handle the brutal demands of cordless power tools are still a bit exotic. I would not be surprised to see NiCd powering lower-end cordless tools for another decade or so just because of its simplicity and market inertia.

Lead-acid still lives on, so I expect NiCd will also keep on chugging in spite of its obsolecence.

NiCd's are likely to be around for a very long time. There is no other technology that will take the kinds of abuse NiCd's can, and shrug it off.

For example A 24V/45AH NiCd is used in a Beechcraft KingAir C90 aircraft. It spins up a 550hp gas turbine engine, which requires over 700 amperes. Once the engine starts, the starter turns into a generator, that recharges the NiCd at 300 amperes for a few minutes, so it can then spin up the 2nd Gas turbine engine. Show me a Li-Ion that can put out 15C without threatening to explode, and can be recharged from near flat to nearly fully charged in 6 minutes also without exploding....

I suppose I should modify my statement that "NiCd is definitely on the way out" and rephrase that as "NiCd is definitely on the way out for most consumer applications" - cordless power tools being the big exception.

Maybe I shouldn't but in but I will. This was a two-part question. Did I miss the answer to the one related to the possible fragility of the HIDs in the cold temperatures? :huh2:

Karl

mattheww50 said:

NiCd's are likely to be around for a very long time. There is no other technology that will take the kinds of abuse NiCd's can, and shrug it off.

For example A 24V/45AH NiCd is used in a Beechcraft KingAir C90 aircraft. It spins up a 550hp gas turbine engine, which requires over 700 amperes. Once the engine starts, the starter turns into a generator, that recharges the NiCd at 300 amperes for a few minutes, so it can then spin up the 2nd Gas turbine engine. Show me a Li-Ion that can put out 15C without threatening to explode, and can be recharged from near flat to nearly fully charged in 6 minutes also without exploding....

Click to expand...

After buying "two" prius's, I now have tremendous respect for Japanese engineering via Toyota.... They picked NiMh for the battery for the prius... Rumours are the next one will be Lithium of some fashion... just not sure which one yet. But the almost 100lb NiMh that comes in the prius has to be able to take a charge current of 50kw when braking and 10kw when coasting.. with brisk acceleration.... the batteries deliver tremendous torque to the wheels.

karlthev said:

Maybe I shouldn't but in but I will. This was a two-part question. Did I miss the answer to the one related to the possible fragility of the HIDs in the cold temperatures? :huh2:

Click to expand...

Good down to -40C (or F) The battery chemistry/system is the limiting factor above that temperature.

Thanks!! Lower than I can go!!


Karl

Thanks so much for everyone's info. My next hid will have lithium batteries. I used my lc100 last night for 2+hours and it did great...and the beam went to about nothing so I can throw it on the charger. If I always do that, I should get hundreds of uses out of the batt. I just hate when I want to use my light for 30-45 min. Then I know I will either have reduced runtime or have to let it sit there and discharge before charging the light.

I will keep reading posts and saving up funds. I would like 2 hr+ runtime and at least a 24watt bulb and a lithium battery(ies). I also want it to have good flood abilities not just a tight spot. Any recomdations would be appreciated. Thanks again for the help.

woodrow said:

Thanks so much for everyone's info. My next hid will have lithium batteries. I used my lc100 last night for 2+hours and it did great...and the beam went to about nothing so I can throw it on the charger. If I always do that, I should get hundreds of uses out of the batt. I just hate when I want to use my light for 30-45 min. Then I know I will either have reduced runtime or have to let it sit there and discharge before charging the light.

I will keep reading posts and saving up funds. I would like 2 hr+ runtime and at least a 24watt bulb and a lithium battery(ies). I also want it to have good flood abilities not just a tight spot. Any recomdations would be appreciated. Thanks again for the help.

Click to expand...

Sounds like your getting yourself worked up for the Xeray!... it has spot and flood. Click on the spotlight in the upper right corner that says "new" for that link.

Mine is the 50W and its so stinkin bright, I still can't believe it....I think it must be getting brighter and brighter... I do know it takes a few hours to really break in HID bulbs.

But I saw a hint about C cell lithiums being sold on the groupbuy page..look at post # 9, the guy was selling D cells and talked about his friend selling C cells, but I couldn't find it.
But beware, these cells were "unprotected", which means should you short them you could make a little bomb!... or if the flashlight you put them in pulls them down too low without an automatic lowvoltage shutoff, you will kill the battery. Those may have been 3.6 volts in a C shell I don't know?

But remember the 1.5 Volt lithiums are "not" rechargable only the 3.6 volt.
Here is a discussion about this issue,

if you really want all the properties of lithium and are willing to do without all the Amp Hour you would get with a C cell, you could get a C shell that holds a AA battery and put the energizer AA lithum battery in the C shell by using a battery adapter.

Unless your just wanting the awesome shelf life of lithium, and must have recharge abilities, I would elect to use NiMh and have recharge abilities with 3000ah. But note the volts of each cell is only 1.2 so your light may not be as bright as it would with 1.5 in each cell.

But if you can live without recharge abilities and want Lithium.. the AA's are no slouch... they have more energy in them each than the NiMh C cells do with their 1.5 volts at 3000mah!

-----------------------------

I finally got ahold of "AW"... his cells will be protected C cell lithium ion rechargable... but they are not ready yet.... so much for the 1.5 volt... but the AA lithium non rechargables have as much juice as any other technology in C cell it appears.

Hello Matthew,

mattheww50 said:

Show me a Li-Ion that can put out 15C without threatening to explode, and can be recharged from near flat to nearly fully charged in 6 minutes also without exploding....

Click to expand...

There are some new Li-Ion cells that offer a 35C discharge rate and can be charged in 5 minutes... safely, without exploding. They may be able to compete with NiCd's, but further testing is needed.

You can check them out at www.a123systems.com

Tom

Nice technology....

I was impressed with the nail penetration video

Normal lithiums get really pissed if they get punctured... a lessen not to carry then loose with your keys!

But although these look like awesome batteries.. I don't they will fit his application since he needs 1.5volt cells... these appear to be 3.3 volt cells.

If they had a C cell size battery, he could put a spacer inline... eg. one of these batteries with one spacer would work for a two cell light.

But I bet these babies are exxxxxpppennssiiiiiveee!!!!!!

Thier page is kinda hard to navigate, there is so much on it and it doesn't yet seem user friendly for normal non technical persons..

but here is a nice spec sheet.