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Thread: Production CREE XR-E Testing

  1. #41
    Flashaholic* milkyspit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by jtr1962
    Amazing results and thanks for testing these NewBie!

    To show how much less heat these make for a given lumen output let's say the design goal is 80 lumens. You can get that with a typical Luxeon III running at 700 mA. Typical Vf is roughly 3.7 volts so input power would be 2.59 watts. Efficiency is about 10% so you would have to deal with about 2.33 watts of heat.

    Now let's do the same thing with a Cree XR-E. You only need about 350 mA. Vf would be around 3.1 volts so power input would be only 1.085 watts, a reduction of 58% compared to using the Lux III. The heat reduction is even more impressive. Since this part is about 25% efficient you would only be dealing with about 0.81 watts of heat, a reduction of 65% compared to the Lux III. In other words, one-third the heat for the same lumen output.

    The good times are just beginning. A few years ago I was waiting patiently until LEDs finally reached or bettered fluorescent tube efficiency. That time has finally arrived. I can hardly wait to see what Cree has in store for us next year!

    Jtr, how does one know the efficiency of a given LED? You cited 10% for your LuxIII scenario.

    On a semi-related note, I've been building with LuxI S**H for a while now and have noted that there's a VERY noticeable reduction in heat... for example, my M180 builds even after two hours of continuous runtime, generate only lukewarm amounts of heat. As far as light, we're looking (ballpark) at 180 lumens out of the emitters with efficiency around 55 lumens per watt. But how efficient in percentage terms are these emitters as far as light vs. heat? The evidence suggests there must be a marked increase beyond that 10% figure, but how do I quantify?

    As far as fluorescents, good riddance! I've long been of a strong ANTI-fluorescent mindset, given that EVERY FLUORESCENT TUBE CONTAINS MERCURY VAPOR! Nasty, nasty, NASTY stuff! And even if the manufacturers don't gloss over this fact (most do), we all know broken fluorescent tubes are most definitely NOT cleaned up in the manner one would treat release of a hazardous chemical... in school classrooms full of children, for example, nobody leaves, the janitor shows up with his dustpan and just sweeps up the glass. Not good!

    If high-efficiency LEDs can put the final stake through the heart of fluorescent lighting, then God bless them.
    --Scott

  2. #42
    Flashaholic* MillerMods's Avatar
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    Drool Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    WOW! Those pics put it into perspective. These XR-E's ROCK!
    Sign-up list for the MillerMods high power Arc AAA Cree XR-E mod is here

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    OMG!
    The visual difference in output is almost unbelievable !

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    LOL! The spill of the CREE is actually brighter than the hotspot of the P1!


    WP

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by milkyspit
    Jtr, how does one know the efficiency of a given LED? You cited 10% for your LuxIII scenario.
    I'm assuming a luminous efficacy of around 330 lm/W for the emitted spectrum. I read that this is about right for blue plus YAG phosphor LEDs. While my calculations may not be exact, they are at least in the ballpark.

    On a semi-related note, I've been building with LuxI S**H for a while now and have noted that there's a VERY noticeable reduction in heat... for example, my M180 builds even after two hours of continuous runtime, generate only lukewarm amounts of heat. As far as light, we're looking (ballpark) at 180 lumens out of the emitters with efficiency around 55 lumens per watt. But how efficient in percentage terms are these emitters as far as light vs. heat? The evidence suggests there must be a marked increase beyond that 10% figure, but how do I quantify?
    55 lm/W would be roughly 17 or 18% efficient. The great thing about efficiency increases is first off you need less power for the same light output. That already means a reduction in heat. Since the LEDs are more efficient in terms of converting power to light, you get a smaller percentage of the power you put in coming out as heat so you win again. That's why your S-bin LuxI's make way less heat than, say, a Q-bin.

    As far as fluorescents, good riddance! I've long been of a strong ANTI-fluorescent mindset, given that EVERY FLUORESCENT TUBE CONTAINS MERCURY VAPOR! Nasty, nasty, NASTY stuff! And even if the manufacturers don't gloss over this fact (most do), we all know broken fluorescent tubes are most definitely NOT cleaned up in the manner one would treat release of a hazardous chemical... in school classrooms full of children, for example, nobody leaves, the janitor shows up with his dustpan and just sweeps up the glass. Not good!

    If high-efficiency LEDs can put the final stake through the heart of fluorescent lighting, then God bless them.
    Believe me, I share your sentiments which is exactly why developments like this make me happy. Although I love everything else about fluorescent lighting I've always hated the hazardous chemicals and the fact that the tubes can shatter just like incandescent bulbs. A highly efficient, unbreakable, pure white (I really hate the yellowish light of incandescent lamps), and very long-lasting light source is what I have long wanted. Finally with the Cree it seems we have that, and it will only get better as time goes on! Now if only Lumileds can get off their collective rearends to release something competitive.
    Last edited by jtr1962; 10-27-2006 at 02:56 PM. Reason: grammar

  6. #46
    Flashaholic* MillerMods's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    I quote from here

    "The theoretical maximum for any light spectra is 683 lm/W (for 555 nm monochromatic radiation). For white light, the maximum is typically 300 to 350 lm/W (for a traditional fluorescent lamp spectrum).....It has been shown that it is theoretically possible for a RGB white LED to have a maximum of over 400 lm/W, which means that source efficacy of 200 lm/W can be achieved with 50% LED radiant efficiency. This is the rationale for the US Department of Energy’s solid-state lighting goal of 200 lm/W."

    So 85-95 lm/W will be something close to 21-24% efficient for the Cree XR-E. About the same or better than a high quality flourescent lamp.

    I have a good feeling that Cree's development and pricing will generate a huge boost in LED's place in the lighting industry.
    Last edited by MillerMods; 10-27-2006 at 08:07 PM.
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  7. #47
    Flashaholic* Nitroz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    I held the reflector in my hand, over the CREE XR-E and thus it isn't centered, and the photo is at an angle, as the truck was in the way. So, we have the larger reflector I used (so please keep this in mind!), and this is what I saw:




    Anyhow, I need to run off to bed, maybe I can put together something tomorrow that is a much more fair comparison.
    @%$! *!@# That is amazing. Looking forward to more reports. Nice Work Newb!

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Let me contribute a white wall beam shot (sorry, it's all I got right now)

    I built an Aleph 19 with a Wiz2 running the Cree at 690mA on the left. A modified HDS B42 with the brightest U bin I can find is on the right. I estimate the HDS is hitting the LED pretty hard since my runtime tests on it show about 12 minutes on high. It's also comparable to another HDS light that measured over 60 lumens at LSI so this particular light is my "calibrated" source.




    The McR-19 in the Aleph is an excellent match to the XR-E. Lots of sidespill but the hot spot has enough intensity to be able to give the light some respectable throw.

  9. #49
    Flashaholic* MillerMods's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    oops, double post.
    Last edited by MillerMods; 10-27-2006 at 07:02 PM.
    Sign-up list for the MillerMods high power Arc AAA Cree XR-E mod is here

  10. #50
    Flashaholic* MillerMods's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    I like the 75 degree viewing angle of the Cree. It makes the spill much more useful. A really deep narrow reflector will make one of these XR-E's a real flame thrower! The new AA Mag LED reflector would be a good candidate.
    Sign-up list for the MillerMods high power Arc AAA Cree XR-E mod is here

  11. #51
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Finally went ahead and did some quantitative measurements. I have a P2 bin Cree and comparing that to a U bin Lux III, it is 50% brighter. I wish I had access to a sphere but based on what I know about this particular U bin Lux III, the Cree is outputting over 90 lumens easily through the Aleph's sapphire lens which is pretty lossy.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    I held the reflector in my hand, over the CREE XR-E and thus it isn't centered, and the photo is at an angle, as the truck was in the way. So, we have the larger reflector I used (so please keep this in mind!), and this is what I saw:



    No Way! That P1 beam shot looks totally wrong. If this was taken at an angle, but close to a garage, the P1 beam should be much bigger and have at least SOME spill to it. What gives?

  13. #53
    Flashaholic* :)>'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Please tell me that the HD45 could be modded with the Cree's for 2 level light. The beamshot was tremendous even at 450 ma. From the looks of that beamshot, the output at 450 ma is greater than the output of my Lux III HD45 at 900 ma.

    Nice.!

    -Goatee

  14. #54
    Flashaholic* AlexGT's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    I think the only thing that "gives" is that the Cree is totally OWNING the U bin




    Quote Originally Posted by p1fiend

    No Way! That P1 beam shot looks totally wrong. If this was taken at an angle, but close to a garage, the P1 beam should be much bigger and have at least SOME spill to it. What gives?

  15. #55

    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by AlexGT
    I think the only thing that "gives" is that the Cree is totally OWNING the U bin
    There is no way that a P1 beam is a tiny < 1ft x 1ft spot with no spill. Something isn't right with that shot, yet everyone seems incredibly impressed with it.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    ...
    Last edited by grapplex; 02-23-2007 at 12:49 AM.

  17. #57
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    The flood brightness in the CREE is tremendous. Instead of a really "contrasty" hotspot with a weak flood, it has easily as strong of a hotspot, and a very strong flood. It makes for a *very* useful light, that can throw and has a flood beam that is much closer to the hotspot, imagine flood that can be throw. I found it very useful for searching for things.


    Anyhow, I got my A19 XR-E, which has a bit of an issue. Within two hours of receiving the package, dat2zip was all over things to get the problem rectified. So, this isn't a good comparision either, as it is, the XR-E is "crippled"

    But it has bracketing of the photos, and the reflectors are so close in size, that it takes out the reflector factor-just remember the XR-E is now crippled:


  18. #58
    Flashaholic* AtomSphere's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    P1 got owned! Thanks for the pictures!
    I rather have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

  19. #59
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Man this new stuff is really advancing pretty quickly.....pretty soon we will all be replacing our coveted U bins as outdated.

    Ok not knowing much at all about dome characters and even less about reflectors is there a necessary reason for the actual design of this new Emitter? Would it be possible to place this new design inside the same dome shape as a standard Luxeon III design? I am wondering if this new emitter somehow has to be made into a more flood pattern by design?...Is it simply done because they do not wish to violate some form of copy write design of LumiLeds?

    I am wondering if they will offer different viewing angles to better use existing reflectors while maintaining the same output as the new design. It seems a shame that we will have to start all over trying to find a custom made reflector for this new design however Don seems to be doing just that.

    I sure do like the idea of using some of the ready available 17mm reflectors and a small host light for this new emitter. Imagine this beast coupled with an Orb NS and direct drive with the much improved efficiency levels.....now that is impressive to say the least.....or one of those slick MillerModded Arc hosts....the possibilities are sure interesting to think about.
    Is that an ARC in your pocket or are you just small like that?

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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Robocop
    It seems a shame that we will have to start all over trying to find a custom made reflector for this new design however Don seems to be doing just that.

    I sure do like the idea of using some of the ready available 17mm reflectors and a small host light for this new emitter. Imagine this beast coupled with an Orb NS and direct drive with the much improved efficiency levels.....now that is impressive to say the least.....or one of those slick MillerModded Arc hosts....the possibilities are sure interesting to think about.
    The McR17XR reflector? Yeah, I think those will fit in my MillerMods 1.7 watt L1P with an XR-E sitting behind it. 100+ lumens with a basic and 125 lumens with a Q3 bin sounds rather tastey to me.

    Don has taken the lead with this so I eagerly await what kind of magic he has planed in the XR series.
    Peak Pacific AAA UP brass (EDC) E01 (keys), Peaks, Arcs, Fenix, Q5 Aspheric HA-III Mag etc.

  21. #61
    Flashaholic paxxus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    I want an XR-E based high-end torch so badly it's not even funny. Gimme, gimme!

  22. #62
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    What I would like is to have retrofit kits for popular and custom lights, like HDS's McGizmo's, Bulk's.

    I am currently searching for a way to put one of this babies on a LH to have variable output, anyone have the physical dimensions of the CREE star? Is it the same size as the lumileds star?

    Why the hell did CREE come up with a stupid 75 degree angle? cant they see that almost all the current optics and reflectors are based on the radial pattern? That seems DUMB!!! bigtime, again there is no standarization, VHS vs Beta dilemma.

  23. #63
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    The cree looks so promising. I too thank you Newbie for the information! I bet this would be a great lightsource in a Gladius, my Minimag LED, and I'd love to see one retrofitted to my KL5 head. Hell, I bet this will be the LED to have in '07.
    A few favorite lights from: McGizmo, Data, milkyspit, HDS, and Surefire

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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Chronos
    The cree looks so promising. I too thank you Newbie for the information! I bet this would be a great lightsource in a Gladius, my Minimag LED, and I'd love to see one retrofitted to my KL5 head. Hell, I bet this will be the LED to have in '07.

    LOL!

    It is the LED to have for 2006.

    Next year will bring further improvements, trust me.

  25. #65
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Don,NewBie and others.
    Thanks for all your hard work in bringing all this info to the membership.
    Much appreciated. Thank you.
    David............................................." Some Homemade Creations"

  26. #66

    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Any chance someone could do a comparison between a Lux III, V and XR-E using the same type reflector, preferably a 17 or 18mm? I'm curious how the beams compare.
    The shadows are darkest during the day.

  27. #67
    Flashaholic* KDOG3's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Wow. Just wow. Sorry if my questioning is repititous, but I'm just dyin' for answers to some questions:

    Where do we get them? How much are they?

    Possibility of mounting one in a U2? Whats the U2s' current draw on high anyway?

    Putting one in a MagLED - someone has GOT to try this. I would if I could get a hold of one!

    There seems to be a HUGE spread as far as the output numbers, 74-100. Is it possible to know what a particular emitter puts out?
    FAILURE TO PLAN ON YOUR PART DOES NOT CONSTITUTE AN EMERGENCY ON MY PART.

  28. #68

    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by KDOG3
    There seems to be a HUGE spread as far as the output numbers, 74-100. Is it possible to know what a particular emitter puts out?
    This spread represents a big improvement over the 3 watt Luxion which has a range from 60 to 249.6 Note that the higher bins have equal or greater spread over a single bin.
    U.....87.4....113.6 = 26.2
    V...113.6....147.7 = 34.1
    W..147.7....192.0 = 44.3
    X...192.0....249.6 = 57.6

  29. #69
    Flashaholic* D@rk Messenger's Avatar
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    Grinser2 Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    you guys created my almost notorious habit of almost buying lights and hearing about the newest latest and greatest stuff.
    All started with a streamlight keymate...CPF, NOW LOOK WHAT YOU HAVE DONE!...embarking on the journey for a real light...better than surefire ...making pathetic attempt searching for the ultimate aa cough-cree cough cough ion cough

  30. #70
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by D@rk Messenger
    you guys created my almost notorious habit of almost buying lights and hearing about the newest latest and greatest stuff.

    LOL!

    Thats better than buying the latest high end flashlight, then the next day, before it arrives, having something killer, like the CREE XR-E hit the streets...


  31. #71
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by KDOG3
    Where do we get them? How much are they?
    Is it possible to know what a particular emitter puts out?
    Source: http://www.cutter.com.au/proddetail.php?prod=cut651

    Info: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...1&page=1&pp=30

    Lumens ? Bin P3 available at the moment. (P3= 73.9~80.6 lumens @ spec)

  32. #72
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    There is a group buy going on now. Check it out.
    Mike

  33. #73

    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    woooooo....
    great light,I love it!
    welcome to www.lumapower.com
    We do accept Paypal : sales@lumapower.com

  34. #74
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    I've been goofing around a bit with the XR-E, if anyone is interested in some beamshots:

    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/show...42#post1664042
    http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/show...44#post1664044

  35. #75
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Would direct driving it on 1 li-ion overdrive it by a lot?
    Got busted lights? Send me a PM and depending on the situation, I'll take 'em off your hands. I always like a good modding challenge.

  36. #76
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by Kryosphinx
    Would direct driving it on 1 li-ion overdrive it by a lot?
    Not if it is a LiFePO4 based 3.2V Lithium-Ion. Punching the low voltage Cree with a 3.7V one would cook the thing as it will attempt to pull 2 amps.
    Peak Pacific AAA UP brass (EDC) E01 (keys), Peaks, Arcs, Fenix, Q5 Aspheric HA-III Mag etc.

  37. #77
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Many folks have talked about how utterly ice cold the CREE looks, or how it is blue.

    This is usually due to a monitor that is not calibrated, or a camera that was not white balanced "correctly".

    To give folks an idea, here is my A19 CREE XR-E measurements. If you look at the block labeled T, you will see that it measured 6402, which works out to 6402K:


  38. #78
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Did sone efficiency calculations using Newbie's graphs from post 1:
    mA ------- 20 ---- 80 ----- 350 ----- 700 --- 825
    Volt ----- 2.7 --- 2.84 --- 3.1 ------ 3.27 --- 3.32
    Watt ---- .054 - .2272 -- 1.085 -- 2.289 -- 2.739
    Lumens - 6 ----- 23 ------ 80 ------ 134 ---- 152
    Lm/W --- 111 -- 101 ----- 74 ------- 59 ----- 55

    I picked mA based on the more common LED drive currents.
    20mA >>5mm LEDs.
    80mA >>my guess for Peak Pacific Baltic Fenix E1 L0P-SE default.
    350mA >> Lux 1 nominal.
    700mA >> Lux III nominal.
    825mA >> The 1st production light from the Shoppe.

    I do not have a working copy of Excel. Maybe someone with a copy can get the raw data off Newbie and plot a nice graph.
    Last edited by LEDninja; 11-03-2006 at 04:56 AM.

  39. #79
    Flashaholic* milkyspit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Newbie, I wouldn't mind a copy of the raw data I'd need for lumens/watt efficiency testing. Any chance I could snag a copy of your raw data? PM if so... if not, no biggie! Just wanted to ask.
    --Scott

  40. #80
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    Default Re: Production CREE XR-E Testing

    Quote Originally Posted by NewBie
    Many folks have talked about how utterly ice cold the CREE looks, or how it is blue.

    This is usually due to a monitor that is not calibrated, or a camera that was not white balanced "correctly".

    To give folks an idea, here is my A19 CREE XR-E measurements. If you look at the block labeled T, you will see that it measured 6402, which works out to 6402K:
    x:0.3136 and y:0.3378 mean a WF bin, if you is sure that yours are WC bin this mean that with overdrive the tint shift (just for comparison WF is like lumileds X1)
    Last edited by davidefromitaly; 11-03-2006 at 08:20 AM.

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