Black Hawk Down...cont'd

Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

There is a thread over in the LED forum...Black Hawk Down with some chit-chat on the nature of governments (mostly U.S.).

Comments like:
"USA has arguably the most corrupt government on the planet"
"...can you say Enron?"
"I'll ... assume you are speaking of the PREVIOUS administration"
"most corrupt after what the Clinton administration foisted upon us"

Here is my 2 cents...

Citizens of democracies get the gov't they invest in.
Poor investment = not so good gov't.

Most of us (including me) go about our daily lives with very little knowledge or concern about what our gov't is doing. Election time comes around and we either don't vote (I try to always at least vote) or we prepare by absorbing the ad campaigns pushed onto us and MAYBE we read an editorial piece in the paper or a quick glace at a voter's guide (The League of Women Voters usually tries to prepare a pretty objective discussion).

If this is all you are doing (its about all I do), it is pretty low investment.

So, who really runs things when we aren't paying attention? People with a REALLY vested interest. Usually that is people with money or investments that are impacted in a big way by Gov't policies.

Did you know that Enron was the 7th largest corporation in the U.S. but paid no income taxes in 4 of the last 5 yrs? They made a profit those years, but, they contributed so much to political causes (over .5 million to GWBush) and paid so much out in bonuses (especially stock options...tax deductable as an "expense"), that they paid no income tax. NO TAX. Their contributions helped pay for some of those ads we "absorb".

I paid more income tax in my little household than the 7th largest U.S. corporation (kinda makes me proud...huh?).

I won't try to argue for Bush or Clinton. My point is... pay attention, or let someone else do it. If you let someone else do it, you've let THEM run YOUR government.

President Bush is pushing for another economy stimulus package. Look around on the web for some details...read about it. You might be surprised at some of the content that is not revealed by listening to "sound bites" from politicians.

Now, a little on foreign policy...

Gov'ts (including the U.S.), do what is in their "national interests".

Our U.S. gov't has:
-Overthrown democratically elected gov'ts when it suited us (Iran before the Shah).
-Stopped democratic elections when it looked like the outcome wouldn't be favorable (Vietnam)
-Fomented rebellions (To get Panama to split off from Columbia...so we could build the canal)

Much of this, regular "Americans" might not have agreed with if they were paying attention (after all, we are for democracy...right?). But... we mostly don't pay attention. So, someone with a vested interest lobbies our gov't to use its power and the lives of our military people to swing a world event in the favor of their "interests".

The folks in this CandlePower Forum are interested in energy...right? I know I love my Infinity Task Light 'cause it uses batteries SO efficiently.

Are you curious at all as to why the latest "energy policies" have so little content about conservation and so much about expanding the sources of petroleum (drilling in the Alaskan Nat'l Wildlife Refuge)?

It just might be that continuing with the processing and sale of vast amounts of petroleum is quite profitable for some people with very large interests. Someday, that petroleum will run out. Why are we waiting until that becomes a crisis to start developing and promoting alternative fuels?

Right now, there is technology to convert soy beans into diesel fuel. For every 1 unit of energy put into creating the fuel, you get 3 units back out. So, Bio-Diesel could replace up to 20% of the diesel fuel we use in the U.S.; making us more energy independent and benefiting our farmers instead of Arabian princes.

But...Bio-diesel isn't being pursued very vigorously. Hmmm. How come? One reason might be that re-locating the sale of 20% of a petroleum based fuel will REALLY impact a certain set of well informed, powerful and well connected people.

Just an example. Stay interested. Read. Draw your own conclusions and be involved with your own gov't to the extent that you want to be.

Just my 2 cents...

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

ikendu,
welcome to Chit Chat.

I read your post as heartfelt: it also manages to be *polite*, and *reasonable*, just like CPF usually is.

That's one feature of CPF that we can all be justly proud of.

*************************************

This forum is for off-topic thoughts, ideas, discussions, observations, whatever. Basically, anything goes. Whatever you like. If it's Off-Topic, it's fit for here.

So far, I have been remiss in not publishing a policy for this forum. (Golly-Gosh, I'm slow sometimes). But then again, it's difficult to make policy when there doesn't seem to be a need for it ......

When I do finally finish it, the words

- Inclusive
- Non-sexist
- Anti-Racist
- Legal, *Decent*, Honest and Truthful
- Non-Homophobic
- Tolerant

will feature as qualities we encourage.
(Of course, the policy will be posted for consultation with you all, and be a collaborative effort).

We have had a few bitter disagreements on the board, most of which have been resolved, or simply left alone. When "common sense" rules, and personal attacks are left unposted, it can lead to a happier community.

Of course, we are an *Adult* forum, and strong feelings are to be expected, nothing to be avoided or afraid of. Post whatever y'all like, argue over things, exercise your wit and humour.

This is OUR community.

Sincerely,
Jahn,

lightlover, [ *something ridiculous ? ] Moderator member #260 CPForums

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

you guys see that simpsons where the one-toothed aliens kidnap clinton and dole and assume thir identities?...i loved that episode, especially at the end when the aliens had taken over and homer says 'don't blame me, i voted for the other guy'...

i live and work in washington, dc and i *hate* politics...i've seen politics turn some great people into greedy, back-stabbing, lying, decietful people...i consider politicians to be a seperate breed of people, almost the 'royalty' of the old king and queen blood-line crap...there are very few people in politics that i can identify with and think 'yeah, he knows what it's like to be in my shoes'...

so, even though i live in the capital of the free world (is there *any* free world any more?), i have never once voted because i have never once seen someone worth voting for...

my heartfelt condolences go out to the good people that died in somalia, viet-nam, korea, afghanastan, et al...but i have to wonder why those people where there in the first place...did qwait happen because we wanted to protect freedom or oil?...did rowanda *not* happen because those people weren't worthy of our intervention?...when the CIA trained osama bin laden to be a terrorist what did they think he would do with his new-found 'gift'?...

in the end you reap what you sow...

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

Quwait happened because... hmmm ... could it be OIL?

I do think so.

Ruwanda didn't happen...'cause they didn't have something we need. Some people have suggested that we turn a blind eye to Africa because the suffering we see there is black. But I think it is even more fundamental than supposed racism. If there is something the U.S. needs or wants...then we are interested.

On voting...

The thing that separates the U.S. from other hot spots is... we don't have to resort to weapons to change our government. We can vote.

So...it is each American's right to vote, or not, as they choose. But it is the voting that assures a peaceful, bloodless transition from one power to another. Think about it the next time you see someone else's gov't being changed by tanks in the street. It keeps our elected politicians just a LITTLE more honest and caring about the little guy...'cause they know they CAN be voted out.

Vote or not, your choice. Just be sure the right doesn't disappear someday when you aren't looking (unless you prefer that "tanks in the street" thing).

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

that was my point with the simpons episode, we don't really have a choice...do you think al gore or george bush are all that different?...do you think either one of them gives a damn wat you or i think?...do you really think either one of them would make a *good* president?...i don't...so what are my options?...and don't say 'vote' because there's no one that i can see worth my vote...

most people i know vote because they would rather have the percieved lesser of two evils, not because they really *want* to vote...i see them all as evil...not as a black and white 100% evil, but dirty enough that i don't want to be a part of putting them into power...

so our oil supply gets threatened and we go in guns blazing, but in a place where they don't have much 10,000 people every single day were being butchered with machetes and we don't even notice it...i think there's a pretty large disparity there...

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ikendu:
'cause they know they CAN be voted out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or voted IN by the hair of a hanging chad.

Ikendu - I appreciate your posts.

Our foreign policy is based so deeply in oil, that it is impossible to get a clear view of what is really going on. Independence from foreign energy would go a long way toward ending US-induced bloodshed. When our most common (recent) patriotic symbol is an 8-mpg SUV flying ten American flags - you know we have a problem.

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

Guys-

Sorry for getting uppity over in LED's. I lose my patience for this kind of stuff very easily now since 9/11.

Our govt. has corruption. That is germain to any earthly institution where there is human involvement. But our govt.'s original mission over in Somalia was a humanitarian one. The food and supplies we were sending over there were being intercepted by several warlord directed factions. These barbarians were stealing the food and medical supplies meant for the Somali people, and threatening the safety of the aid workers. Despite what the media told us, Bush Sr. sent our boys over there to ensure that the supplies got to their intended recipients and to protect the aid workers. The whole thing went FUBAR in 1993 when the mission objective was changed to a policing action and trying to go after one particular warlord and his "freedom fighters". Many of the "civilian casualties" over there died with G3's and RPG launchers in their hands.

I don't like it when being pro-American is portrayed as being something dishonorable, because it is not. Our country has problems just like any other, and that is no reason to feel ashamed. The 18 soldiers that were KIA in Somalia did not deserve it because they had no business being over there. If you are a U.S. soldier it is your duty to follow the directive of your govt., whether or not you fully agree with the policy. Let us not cheapen their deaths by comparing numbers. Now that I've cooled off a bit, I presume this was not Gandalf's intent.

This leads me to my final point. That is to offer Gandalf a sincere and heartfelt apology for aiming the flamethrower at him. No, it is plain to see I do not agree with what he said. However I am not so proud that I cannot recognize when I might have alienated a fellow flashaholic over a few words. No hard feelings Gandalf, I'm sorry.

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

ikendu you are right when you say the people get the gov. they deserve. If we don't go out there and do research on these people we vote into office then we deserve what we get. I mean we did get 8 years os Clinton and now N.Y. has Hillary and you know she wants to be president. Personally I vote in ALL my primarys (sp) because I figure my vote has more weight there than on election day. When you add up how many people vote in a primary it may be a couple of hundred in my district so my vote is one of a few hundred. On election day(yes I vote)but my vote is one of a hundred million. I also do my research and pay attention to these folks. When I lived in R.I. about 7 years ago I watched one of the Kennedy's(he was a member of the R.I. Senate at the time)arguing for gun control and every time he was asked a question he had to lean over and let the attorney that sat next to him whisper in his ear and then he gave "his" answer. So if you want to know what your gov. is like go sit in on a few of these meeting and you will see what I am talking about.

And yes certain political families think they are royalty look at the Kennedy's Gore and the Bush's they all come from at least second generation politicians.

And that Kennedy I saw in R.I.was a member of the R.I. House when he was a sophomore in college and recently ran for gov. of Mass.(he had to drop out because his relative had a thing goung with the babysitter who was like 14). So don't tell me he doesn't think it isn't some family right to be president.

Gore thought it was his right. Jeb Bush was groomed the same way. WE NEED TO PAY ATTENTION TO OUR GOV.

This contrary to what other board members may think is the BEST country on the planet and yes our gov. is corrupt but at least we can talk about and openly protest about it and not be dragged out into the street and shot.

My grandfather left Italy because of Mussolini and got on a boat with NOTHING to start a new life here how many people leave here with nothing to start a new life anywhere else? It seems to me that everybody still wants to come here.

I saw the movie and my blood boiled everytime I saw one of our men killed or hurt we tried to feed these people and they want to kill us. I also was angry because we didn't use APC's only Hummers this mission was a cluster f**k from the beginning because of politics. At least Bush gives the military what they need.

ok enough I will step down from the soapbox

God did bless this country!!

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

I haven't read the book. I know a few who were there and say the feature film is pretty accurate. I also know a few more that were there, have not read the book or seen the movie and refuse to do either. I can emphathize with them. I still remember walking around the recovery ward of the US Naval Hospital, Agana, Guam, in 1970 seeing teenagers crippled and maimed for life trying to make sense of it all. After being in a Southeast Asian nation for 19 months in a particularly hostile period, I still avoid literature or celluloid on the topic. I saw the movie. One line in the film that I particularly found disturbing is as follows.

"...there will always be killing."
Somalian commander interrogating the pilot of a downed Blackhawk (about 3/4 though the film).
Black Hawk Down.

The more things change, the more they remain the same...

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

Hmmm.

Yes, "there will always be..."

It does seem that much of what underlies the parts of human existence that we don't like are traceable back to the existence of humans.

i.e., until the basic nature of humans change (not likely any time soon?), we will continue on much like we have always gone along.

Its pretty funny really. Humans can be kind, generous, caring, helpful, honorable ...on and on.

But, humans can also be cruel, selfish, mean, dishonest and much more.

It almost like someone has set up a great game where the fullest range of human experience can be (and will be) created.

Take one "ordinary" human, put them into a particular environment...and you can probably elicit just about any range of behavior from any of us.

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

A lot of folks like to point out that US foreign policy is often dictated by the desire to keep cheap oil flowing to this country, as if this was some devilish plot foisted upon an innocent population. Clearly it is the job of our elected officials to act in our best interests, and protecting our oil supply is, at this point in time and for the forseeable future, undoubtably in our best interests. Like it or not, our economy, like the rest of the industrialized world, is absolutely dependant on oil. Your food is grown with machines burning oil, it is brought to market with oil, and most people need to burn oil to bring the food home. (It always amuses me that the "anti-car" people point out that they simply walk or bike to the store - a feat only possible in an urban island dependant on oil. Here in rural Ohio, the nearest mall is approximately 30 miles away.)

This utter dependance on oil is not the work of evil Republicans conspiring with nefarious oil company executives - it is simply the natural result of a market economy, the passage of time, and the fact that the internal combustion engine won out over competing technologies when the automobile was in its infancy. In the early twentieth century the oil-burner was the the best choice, and the more the infrastructure grew to support it, the more difficult it became for alternative technologies to compete.

Yes, the alternatives are more developed now than ever, but even assuming that a true competitor to the diesel/gasoline truck or car existed today, the changeover would be enormously traumatic. Leaving aside the tremendous direct costs, consider the number of people currently employed in the automotive industry. Not just those who work for the car companies themselve, but all of the hundreds of thousands of folks who work for the suppliers of everything from bearings to paint to computer software, and who then take their paychecks and buy houses and books and flashlights and yoga lessons...

Our economy is naturally interconnected, and the internal combustion engine is a key element that cannot be removed all at once without wrecking the whole system.

When the alternative technologies are ready and offer real advantages or lower TRUE costs, the market will act to replace IC engines just like it replaced the horse. The problem is that the market reacts slowly, and patience is required.

BCK

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

Oh, and and about the Bio-diesel thing - remember the law of unintended consequences: be careful what you wish for, because it may be granted.

As I recall, Brazil's experiment at circumventing market forces went something like this:

Country has high foreign debt, decides to encourage bio-fuel instead of purchasing oil, to capitalize on natural agricultural resources. Alcohol fuels more expensive, cars don't run as well, so government subsidies required ($$), debt goes up. As use increases, farmers shift from growing food (perishable product) to biomass for alchohol. Food imports increase ($$$), debt goes up. Low margins on biomass necessitate "economies of scale" resulting in small farms being absorbed by agricultural conglomerates, forcing subsistance farmers to hack down the rainforest to survive.

Not exactly the ecological impact the green types had in mind.

On a personal note, when I lived in suburban Pittsburgh there were several local farms markets where I could buy a variety of fresh vegetables. Now that I live in rural Ohio surrounded by farms to the horizon and beyond, the selection in the markets is terrible - the local farms grow only corn or soybeans, because that's where the money is.

The market Force has a light side and a dark side...

-BCK

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 5BY5:
... This [USA] contrary to what other board members may think is the BEST country on the planet ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

5by5, can we Brits be the 7th best country ??

Our UK corruption is generally quite polite and well-concealed. The Royals have little direct public Political power, but have enormous influence through the waning "Establishment".

But as in every country everywhere, Vested Interests decide the outcome of most things.

British Foreign Policy was once chillingly summed up as:
"We have no permanent friends, and no permanent enemies - just permanent interests ... " [slightly misquoted]

I avoid Politicians "acting out" for home Political consumption, whatever nation they are from.

lightlover

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

Comments:

"...protecting our oil supply is, ...undoubtably in our best interests"

It IS presently in our best interests because we have not developed alternatives. That is the important point...developing alternatives. Someday, petroleum will run out. Along the way, if we don't actively develop alternatives, we will have more and more difficulties (and, not unlikely, more and more military conflicts over oil). So...blood for cheap fuel. That thought does bother me, just a little.

Bio-diesel looks like a good technology to trial. Alcohol based fuels have a fundamental problem. For every 1 unit of energy to create alcohol fuel, you get back about .9 units (you get less energy out than you put in). For Bio-diesel, for every 1 unit of energy you put in, you get 3 units out. That's good.

Do I believe that petroleum based companies will try to hold back the economic shift from petroleum based fuels to vegetation based fuels?

Yes. I do.

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> For Bio-diesel, for every 1 unit of energy you put in, you get 3 units out. That's good <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's so good, in fact, that it violates the First Law of Thermodynamics. Now, if you know of a way to do THAT, you really have solved the energy problem.

-BCK

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

Hmmm...

No, that would be OK because what it means is that 1 unit of energy put in by planting, harvesting and processing provides 3 units of energy of portable bio-diesel fuel.

No physical laws are violated because the sun's energy is where the final energy balance comes from.

I wasn't attempting to position bio-diesel as a perpetual motion machine...

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

*something ridiculous*

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> 5by5, can we Brits be the 7th best country ??

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you come to the conclusion that Britain is number 7?

And who would be numbers 2-6?

Re: Black Hawk Down...cont\'d

Hey !!
Once, long ago, we had "The Empire on which the Sun never sets". Literally, UK colonies and possessions were spread so far around the World that at any time of day in GMT, the sun shone over some Brits.

Now, in the Group of Seven, we are ummm, er, 7th ......

(You guys held a tea party, and that spoiled that particular fun.)

Btw, 5by, what was Nation no 1 again ??

lightlover