Use Neutral or Hold Clutch?

jayflash · Nov 14, 2006

Companion to manual/auto thread.

When driving our manual transmission car I try to hold the clutch pedal in for as little time as possible. If I know I'll have to press it in for more than about 5 - 10 seconds, I'll shift into neutral beforehand. For example: when leaving our house I'll goose her in first gear and shift into neutral because there's a stop sign a half block away and I usually have to wait. When approaching a controlled intersection and I know I'll be sitting for more than 10 seconds, I scrub off whatever speed I can (depending the gear) and go to neutral rather than holding the clutch.

I'm under the impression it causes less overall wear on the system by minimizing throwout bearing/fork wear. Is this correct?

I've also read that in some states it's illegal to drive with the tranny in neutral. If this is true is it because you may forget to put the car back into gear if emergency acceleration is necessary?

Diesel_Bomber · Nov 14, 2006

The only times I'm in neutral are at long stop lights(and I'm careful to watch traffic so I can shift into gear BEFORE the light turns green) or idling in the driveway. In your situation with the stop sign half a block away I'd goose it and then let off the gas, leaving the clutch locked up and slowing down with engine braking, and only let the clutch out and use the brakes as the engine got near idle speed. I also downshift most of the time when stoping; blipping the throttle and heel-toeing as needed is automatic. I don't coast in neutral. I doubt this makes any significant difference to my throwout bearing or clutch fork, though it wears my friction disc, pressure plate, and flywheel a bit more.

I'm not saying this is the best way, just the way I do it. It works for me and I feel most in-control of the vehicle this way. If it wears things a little more, that's just fine with me.

:buddies:

PlayboyJoeShmoe · Nov 14, 2006

I don't drive many manual tranny vehicles anymore, but when I do. I use neutral at long stops.

I will go into neutral up to half a mile at some known stops around here with my Ram. But will shift back into drive just before stopping to avoid shocking the drivetrain going into gear at a dead stop. I'd be quite inclined to do much the same stuff if a drove a standard, except no need to go back into gear before stopping completely.

WNG · Nov 14, 2006

Coming to an anticipated stop for a lengthy period of time, I shift into neutral and not wear the throw-out bearing more than necessary.

Ras_Thavas · Nov 14, 2006

I rarely keep the vehicle in neutral. If I am slowing down I downshift through the gears and always stay in the proper gear for whatever speed I happen to be at. That way, if I need to accelerate to get out of a bad situation I don't have to find the right gear first.

At stoplights I would be in first gear, clutch depressed, ready to go. Only if I was in some kind of prolonged stop situation would I out the vehicle in neutral.

I never wore out a clutch, and have taken half a dozen manual transmission cars to over 100,000 miles.

jtr1962 · Nov 14, 2006

I had a great aunt who used to hit the gas to get up to speed after leaving a green light or stop sign, then turn off the engine, hold the clutch down, and just coast to the next light or stop sign. I think she put the car in neutral when she would be coasting for a while (i.e. going downhill with the engine off) to keep her left foot from tiring holding down the clutch. The purpose of all these strategies was obviously to save gas (important during WWII) so some of them might be relevant in today's world, provided you don't need the engine running for power steering or brakes. Then again, a hydrid turns the engine off when possible with no intervention from the driver so that is ultimately a better way.

Lite_me · Nov 14, 2006

I've driven manuals all my life. I'm 59. I always shift to neutral if it's going to be more that 5 sec. or so. And I don't downshift for engine braking. That's just more wear on the clutch plate unless you match engine speed with the gear ratios and that's just to much of a PITA to do all the time. It's much easier to replace brakes.
I've only had to replace one clutch in my life. But that's because I pulled too many holeshots & powershifts. That was in the 70's. :naughty:

jayflash · Nov 14, 2006

Almost like Lite Me I've never replaced a clutch and I've been driving since '68...1968 for you young'uns! I don't like to use my brakes either. Tires or brakes are cheaper to replace.

meeshu · Nov 14, 2006

I usually place the shift into neutral when there is a (likely) stop of 5 or more seconds. The reason being to releive stress on clutch components.

Several years ago I had to replace the clutch, even though the car was driven sensibly and had done low mileage!? And, frankly, I was highly brassed off about the clutch failing relatively early on in it's life; and the car was out of warranty period of course!!! :xyxgun:

My car is a Ford Falcon, 1990 model. There were other problems as well with the car, but the cars clutches reliability are highly questionable! :ohgeez:

bobisculous · Nov 14, 2006

I pretty much always leave it in gear, with the clutch depressed. Seemed to make more sense to me for whatever reason. Probably as it was the way I was brought up.

-C

James S · Nov 15, 2006

While you are correct that holding the clutch in will cause wear on the parts you mention, for a few minutes at a time it's so minimal as to be not at all worth worrying about.

I"ve driven manual transmission cars for hundred of thousands of miles on a single clutch and in stop and go traffic holding the clutch in for long periods and it just wont make any appreciable difference.

If you want to switch to neutral all the time, thats fine, but remember you're wearing down the syncro gear when you pop it back into gear prior to releasing the clutch again

KC2IXE · Nov 15, 2006

WNG said:
Coming to an anticipated stop for a lengthy period of time, I shift into neutral and not wear the throw-out bearing more than necessary.

Yep - in fact most owners manuals will tell you to do that - I was going to say "Use neutral unless you LIKE changing throw-out bearings"

bfg9000 · Nov 15, 2006

In the olden days throwout bearings were a lot less robust than they are today, but there is another bearing.

You can still tell if an engine came from a manual transmission car even now when you go to tear it down, because the thrust bearing on the crankshaft shows far more wear. Stepping on the clutch pedal pushes the crank away from the clutch, and at idle oil pressure is relatively low. In some engines the thrust bearing can wear so thin that it falls out into the oilpan, resulting in the crank chewing into the engine block and making both unrebuildable.

While failure rates are much lower nowadays, why risk it at all?

koala · Nov 15, 2006

I drive a manual. I use neutral all the time. Neutral coasting to a stop and idling. I don't like to step on the clutch for more than 5 seconds because it causes fatigue during very long traffic jams/city driving and also sometimes I drift away not realise that it is not fully depressed. The clutch not fully depressed will cause wearing slowly. I'm worried about clutch wear because I do alot of downshifting, sometime if I don't match the rpm properly the car can jerk quite violently. I think it also spoils the engine mounting and hurt the transmission? It's too addictive I can't refuse not to do it, it also reduce brake dust and wear but I know the clutch is suffering alot. Even after 12yrs of driving I am still learning.

What's a throwout bearing? What does it do?

PEU · Nov 15, 2006

koala said:
I drive a manual. I use neutral all the time. Neutral coasting to a stop and idling. I don't like to step on the clutch for more than 5 seconds

Ditto, I do the same, and I used manual cars all my driving life.

Pablo

bfg9000 · Nov 15, 2006

Koala,
Normally the clutch plate (which is attached to the transmission) is clamped tightly between the pressure plate and flywheel (both attached to the engine) by powerful springs. When you step on the clutch pedal, the throwout bearing is the part that wedges apart the pressure plate and flywheel (against the springs) so the clutch plate floats in between and no longer transmits power. Everything is rotating around and riding against the bearing while it is holding things apart (essentially it pushes the crank away into its thrust bearing while pushing the pressure plate in the opposite direction).

I believe that not matching revs when downshifting causes the majority of premature clutch failures. Many people would never start off from a stop using more than 1500rpm, yet think nothing of slowly letting the clutch out to speed up the engine.

Let's say we're driving along in a high gear and want to slow down a lot for a very sharp corner that requires 1st. We take our time shifting and let the rpm drop down to idle while shifting, and slooowly let out the clutch so that the engine rpm smoothly rises to 5000. Congratulations, we've just caused as much clutch wear as revving to 5000 rpm and slipping the clutch away from a stop sign.

I see many people complain about only getting 30k miles from clutches (when their friend in San Francisco has never had to replace theirs), and think it's because it's so easy to slip the clutch lots when downshifting and not realize it.

nikon · Nov 15, 2006

Driving in neutral is dangerous. It's also illegal in many areas. What happens if you're coasting along at the speed limit and a kid runs out in front of you?. If you have power steering and/or brakes, and your engine cuts out (rare, but it happens), you're going to hit the kid. I wouldn't chance it.

Bimmerboy · Nov 15, 2006

Cool discussion. I do rev matching for less clutch wear, and because I like the sound of my engine... lol.

Although bearings are more robust than 20 years ago, it's still a good idea to minimize stress on the throwout bearing as they can still fail. Had one go on me 4 months after buying a used Bimmer.

koala · Nov 15, 2006

Thanks, I think I should be really using my brakes than driving like a dumb driver on steroids. Luckily I am still on my first set of clutch at 53K miles.

Yes, should never cruise in neutral at highspeed what I mean is(using neutral when) coming to a stop where 2nd is too fast at engine idle rpm. Some people say that disengaging the gear disconnects the power from the car where it is missing when required in an emergency. I don't see it at all, my car is a sedan, more importantly, a fuel economy sedan, not a 3second 0-60mph rocket. No way I can accelerate hard enough to escape anything. Sorry I don't buy it. I always can shift my gear box in 0.002 second if required. :grin2:

bfg9000 said:
Koala,
Normally the clutch plate (which is attached to the transmission) is clamped tightly between the pressure plate and flywheel (both attached to the engine) by powerful springs. When you step on the clutch pedal, the throwout bearing is the part that wedges apart the pressure plate and flywheel (against the springs) so the clutch plate floats in between and no longer transmits power. Everything is rotating around and riding against the bearing while it is holding things apart (essentially it pushes the crank away into its thrust bearing while pushing the pressure plate in the opposite direction).

I believe that not matching revs when downshifting causes the majority of premature clutch failures. Many people would never start off from a stop using more than 1500rpm, yet think nothing of slowly letting the clutch out to speed up the engine.

Let's say we're driving along in a high gear and want to slow down a lot for a very sharp corner that requires 1st. We take our time shifting and let the rpm drop down to idle while shifting, and slooowly let out the clutch so that the engine rpm smoothly rises to 5000. Congratulations, we've just caused as much clutch wear as revving to 5000 rpm and slipping the clutch away from a stop sign.

I see many people complain about only getting 30k miles from clutches (when their friend in San Francisco has never had to replace theirs), and think it's because it's so easy to slip the clutch lots when downshifting and not realize it.

bitslammer · Nov 15, 2006

Neutral is safer for me but I'm usually on 2 wheels.

Use Neutral or Hold Clutch?

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