14500 in Fenix LOP SE/L1(2)T?

Any experience with this? FR indicates that Fenix only approves for NiMh.

whippoorwill said:

Any experience with this? FR indicates that Fenix only approves for NiMh.

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I Don't think you'll get one in a L0P! That's an AAA light! L2P with L1P body, maybe. Don't try in an L1P - it's only rated to 1.5V. L1T and L2T heads are the same IIRC.

I have a question on a similar matter: The P1(D). I e-mailed Fenix and asked if RCR123's where ok and they said it was rated for 1.5 to 4.0 V in (same as all their flashlights?). Have anyone taken one for the team and tried a fully charged RCR123 in a Fenix light?

I THINK that rechargeable 123's are 3.7 volts.

LightHound has a pretty good explanation on batteries for people like me.

Frank Maddix said:

I Don't think you'll get one in a L0P! That's an AAA light! .

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You just have to push real hard!!!!!! What was I thinking?

whippoorwill said:

You just have to push real hard!!!!!! What was I thinking?

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LOL! I just use Lithium AAAs in my L0P - it's a light that's best used in short bursts, you wouldn't take it into serious darkness. If you didn't mean the L0P, then my comments re. L1P/L2P apply.

The new fenix LOD input voltage is 0.8-3.7 volts. You could probably use an AAA sized 10440 li-ion rechargeable.

Be careful, freshly charged li-ions often have an open circuit voltage of just over 4V depending on the charger so you are right at the recommended limit.

For the P1D there are some RCR123s that are "regulated" so that the voltage is closer to 3.2-3.6V - sorry, can't recall the exact voltage. Another option are RCR123 cells based on LiFePO4 chemistry from AW

LiFePO4 R123s

The drawback is you'd have to buy another set of cells + charger.

The L1T is made to withstand 4v, so a 3.7v AA Lithum battery is "safe to use" where as it won't blow the circuit. But even though it is a 3w bulb, that is pushing it a little and Fenix doesn't recommend this.

Most other AA and AAA lights will safely take a Lithium because it is only an extra 0.2V. But in multiples, you may damage a light.

My rule of thumb for AA and AAA lights are:

* If it is a 1w light, 1 Lithium battery is usually safe. (Tried in a Fenix L1P, L1T)

*If it is a 3w light, 1 or 2 Lithium batteries is usually safe. (Did this with a Fenix L2T)

*If it is a 5w light, 3 or 4 Lithium batteries is usually safe.

Others here may state otherwise depending on the light. If you have a Striker-VG, they are adament about not using 3.6v R-CR123's. The tolerance is so tight it can blow the circuit. 3.0v R-CR123's are fine.

In the case of the QIII, the regulator circuit becomes bypassed and the 3w bulb harmlessly handles the extra juice when using a 3.6v R-CR123. Apparently also true of the Fenix P1 as I used this battery in both.

tron3 wrote: "The L1T is made to withstand 4v, so a 3.7v AA Lithum battery is "safe to use" where as it won't blow the circuit. But even though it is a 3w bulb, that is pushing it a little and Fenix doesn't recommend this.
Most other AA and AAA lights will safely take a Lithium because it is only an extra 0.2V. But in multiples, you may damage a light.
My rule of thumb for AA and AAA lights are:
* If it is a 1w light, 1 Lithium battery is usually safe. (Tried in a Fenix L1P, L1T)"

You probably didn't mean it that way -
but this sounds confused between a
14500 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable (AA sized) battery - that this thread is talking about -
and a Primary (non-rechargeable 1.5-1.7V) Lithium AA battery such as the Energizer e2 L91.

They are BOTH Lithium batteries -
but there is a HUGE difference between the 3.7V rechargeable and 1.5V primary batteries -
the primary is normally "safe" direct AA alkaline replacements in most LED flashlights (with a few exceptions) -
whereas the 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeables are NOT safe in a lot of flashlights

Also the L1T is a 3watt - as you correctly said elsewhere -
but list as a 1watt in your rule of thumb about 1.5V Primary Lithium batteries.

Anyway, here's a review of the Fenix L1T on 14500 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable AA sized battery -

Fenix L1T on 3.7V Li-Ion - Whoa!

This review thread also has the L1T/L2T head (stock, mod with Cree XR-E and UWAJ) on 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable RCR123 which has similar characteristics to the 14500 -

Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T (vs. UWAJ, stock)

I have an LxT head and a CR123 body and some unprotected RCR123's that will fit in it. I'll go fire it up and add that info to this thread.

Hmmm...... Looks like a 14500 does fine in the LxT light. Any one looked at the Civictor V-1?

winny said:

I have a question on a similar matter: The P1(D). I e-mailed Fenix and asked if RCR123's where ok and they said it was rated for 1.5 to 4.0 V in (same as all their flashlights?). Have anyone taken one for the team and tried a fully charged RCR123 in a Fenix light?

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It's not true tha all Fenix flashlights are rated for 4.0 volts. From the sheet that came with my L0P SE:

"Warning. The input voltage of the Fenix L0P SE is 0.9V ~ 1.7V. Please do not use other types of batteries (especially 3.6V lithium battery) except AAA alkaline or Ni-MH battery."

Mine doesn't seem to mind an L92 lithium cell, but that's around 1.6 volts.

c_c

whippoorwill wrote: "Hmmm...... Looks like a 14500 does fine in the LxT light. Any one looked at the Civictor V-1?"

No, I would not do it - the Civictor is a 1watt Lux1.

My guess it is similarly rated as the Fenix L1P and L1S - which is 0.9v~1.7v -
well below the nominal 3.7V of the Li-Ion rechargeable 14500.

whippoorwill said:

I THINK that rechargeable 123's are 3.7 volts.

LightHound has a pretty good explanation on batteries for people like me.

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3.7v R-CR123's top off at 4.2v.

3.0v volt R-CR123's top off at 3.7 but only give 3.0v if they are regulated.

tron3 wrote: "3.7v R-CR123's top off at 4.2v."

This really depends on the charger's voltage -
eg: all mine seem to measure about 4.09V "hot off the charger" -
but it is normally something above 4.0V

tron3 wrote: "3.0v volt R-CR123's top off at 3.7 but only give 3.0v if they are regulated"

No if's - I know it's confusing - but Li-Ion cell's "natural" voltage is about 3.6-3.7V - so to get a 3.0V Li-Ion rechargeable RCR123 by definition has to be "regulated".

The nominal voltages marked on the battery usually means that is the battery voltage when under reasonable load.

The warning of 4.2V hot off the charger are open-circuit voltages withOUT any load (other than the meter itself) - although is indicative of something - in real world applications it's the under-load voltage that matters -
but it is very useful as a warning for those who want to use a Li-Ion in a flashlight rated at 1.5V (to about ~1.7V) -
since 4.2V sounds a lot more .......

UnknownVT said:

The nominal voltages marked on the battery usually means that is the battery voltage when under reasonable load.

The warning of 4.2V hot off the charger are open-circuit voltages withOUT any load (other than the meter itself) - although is indicative of something - in real world applications it's the under-load voltage that matters -
but it is very useful as a warning for those who want to use a Li-Ion in a flashlight rated at 1.5V (to about ~1.7V) -
since 4.2V sounds a lot more .......

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Will all the respect, I would not agree with you on the first one. The nominal voltage is the midpoint of the discharge curve without any load. To say what the voltage is under load is less useful since it's hard to calculate worst case scenarios from it. 12 V lead-acid might be the exception that makes the rule (no idea what so ever if you guys use that saying abroad but I'll take my chances ) here.

The second part is also of a similar matter. If you have a transistor for instance that will blow at 4.1 V and your battery will drop down to 4.0 V when loaded with the circuit in question, the capacitance/chemistry slowness will very likely blow the transistor before the voltage drops down to 4.0 V. You can always argue that the process is so fast that the transistor won't break and that would have been the case if the problems where thermal, like the maximum current though a LED but in the case of a transistor break though, you are screwed instantaneously.

The reason why I asked if someone had tried it is because if Fenix can guarantee you that it will work at 4.0 V, they for sure ain't using transistor rated for 4.0 V as absolute maximum. If the transistors/diodes aren't the issue, but some thermal concern like the losses going up with increased voltage and the maximum continuous voltage is 4.0 V is, you can probably run it at 4.2 V for ~50 ms until it drops down without any problem.

winny wrote: "Will all the respect, I would not agree with you on the first one. The nominal voltage is the midpoint of the discharge curve without any load. To say what the voltage is under load is less useful since it's hard to calculate worst case scenarios from it.
The second part is also of a similar matter. If you have a transistor for instance that will blow at 4.1 V and your battery will drop down to 4.0 V when loaded with the circuit in question, the capacitance/chemistry slowness will very likely blow the transistor before the voltage drops down to 4.0 V."

Thank you for the clarification and correction.

Here's what the BatteryUniversity.com says to confirm what you posted -

QUOTE:
"[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Confusion with voltages

For the last 10 years or so, the nominal voltage of lithium-ion was known to be 3.60V/cell. This was a rather handy figure because it made up for three nickel-based batteries (1.2V/cell) connected in series. Using the higher cell voltages for lithium-ion reflects in better watt/hours readings on paper and poses a marketing advantage, however, the equipment manufacturer will continue assuming the cell to be 3.60V.
The nominal voltage of a lithium-ion battery is calculated by taking a fully charged battery of about 4.20V, fully discharging it to about 3.00V at a rate of 0.5C while measuring the average voltage.

Because of the lower internal resistance, the average voltage of a spinel system will be higher than that of the cobalt-based equivalent. Pure spinel has the lowest internal resistance and the nominal cell voltage is 3.80V. The exception again is the phosphate-based lithium-ion. This system deviates the furthest from the conventional lithium-ion system[/font]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Prolonged battery life through moderation

Batteries live longer if treated in a gentle manner. High charge voltages, excessive charge rate and extreme load conditions have a negative effect on battery life. The longevity is often a direct result of the environmental stresses applied. The following guidelines suggest ways to prolong battery life.

-The time at which the battery stays at 4.20/cell should be as short as possible. Prolonged high voltage promotes corrosion, especially at elevated temperatures. Spinel is less sensitive to high voltage.

-3.92V/cell is the best upper voltage threshold for cobalt-based lithium-ion. Charging batteries to this voltage level has been shown to double cycle life. Lithium-ion systems for defense applications make use of the lower voltage threshold. The negative is a much lower capacity.

-The charge current of Li-ion should be moderate (0.5C for cobalt-based lithium-ion). The lower charge current reduces the time in which the cell resides at 4.20V. A 0.5C charge only adds marginally to the charge time over 1C because the topping charge will be shorter. A high current charge tends to push the voltage into voltage limit prematurely."
[/font]
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Page ref: [/font]The high-power lithium-ion (BU5A)

The ideal charge voltage from above for colbalt based Li-Ion seems to be 3.92V which is way below the oft quoted 4.2V,
my charger (NanoCharger) seems to charge to 4.09V - so I don't see 4.2V on any of my RCR123's - but it is rated to 4.2V (marked on charger) and when I measure it open-circuit - it does measure 4.2V -
so perhaps the charger may make a difference?

Thanks,
[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/font]

[/font]

winny wrote: "The second part is also of a similar matter. If you have a transistor for instance that will blow at 4.1 V and your battery will drop down to 4.0 V when loaded with the circuit in question, the capacitance/chemistry slowness will very likely blow the transistor before the voltage drops down to 4.0 V. You can always argue that the process is so fast that the transistor won't break and that would have been the case if the problems where thermal, like the maximum current though a LED but in the case of a transistor break though, you are screwed instantaneously."

Although that may be true -
let me run this by CPF - and please correct if this is wrong -

In the case of voltage step-up circuits in LED flashlights this might not be as critical.

I have been told for step-up circuits when the Vin, ie: battery voltage, exceeds the Vout of the circuit (normally set to the Vf of the LED) - the circuit in effect is by-passed and the flashlight becomes direct-driven.

This would seem anecdotally to be the case for the L1T
on a 14500 - please see -
Fenix L1T on 3.7V Li-Ion - Whoa!

and on 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable RCR123 -
Cree XR-E in Fenix L1/2T (vs. UWAJ, stock)
(for stock, and mods with CreeXR-E and U-bin LuxIII)

So it would seem in this case it's whatever the maximum voltage rating for the LuxIII (T-bin for the L1T) that matters as opposed to the circuit itself...

and in the case of a LuxIII even 4.2V seems well within the specs -

cropped from the current LumiLEDs pdf Luxeon III Emitter Technical Datasheet DS45 -


Does this make any sense?