Iraq...are they really willing to comply or is there another motive
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Perhaps hide any weapons in development, or for simple propaganda (ie make the US look like some sort of evil aggressor if any attack is made after they supposedly comply with UN resolutions)
After killing his own people and using human shields I wouldn't put anything past Saddam Hussein.
After killing his own people and using human shields I wouldn't put anything past Saddam Hussein.
papasan
Enlightened
doesn't matter whether they comply or not, we'll still bomb the hell out of them.
israel is in possession of many weapons (including nuclear) that the united nations has repeatedly told them were in violation of UN resolutions. no talk about invading them. many countries have 'weapons of mass destruction', will we invade them all?
it's all a very thin vail to protect our oil interests since iraq is the #2 producer. bush and chaney both are heavily tied to the oil industry. bush especially from back in the days when saudi arabia (osama's home country and the #1 producer of oil) bailed him out of bankruptcy in texas.
israel is in possession of many weapons (including nuclear) that the united nations has repeatedly told them were in violation of UN resolutions. no talk about invading them. many countries have 'weapons of mass destruction', will we invade them all?
it's all a very thin vail to protect our oil interests since iraq is the #2 producer. bush and chaney both are heavily tied to the oil industry. bush especially from back in the days when saudi arabia (osama's home country and the #1 producer of oil) bailed him out of bankruptcy in texas.
Lux Luthor
Flashlight Enthusiast
I think this is a tactic to try to erode Bush's attempt to gain UN support for an invasion.
By the way, you can hide nuclear weapons somewhere in a country quite easily. The problem is Saddam himself.
Another by the way: You don't need a missile delivery system. I've learned you can sail one right into, say, a NY harbor, and only 2% of the cargo is actually searched. GPS can tell you when it's actually there, then you detonate with some radio signal, or maybe even a simple call on a cell phone.
By the way, you can hide nuclear weapons somewhere in a country quite easily. The problem is Saddam himself.
Another by the way: You don't need a missile delivery system. I've learned you can sail one right into, say, a NY harbor, and only 2% of the cargo is actually searched. GPS can tell you when it's actually there, then you detonate with some radio signal, or maybe even a simple call on a cell phone.
Ohhh, Luther...that is a scary thought. Like that book I read but even more frightening.
Saddam...by saying ok...well, that stops nato from backing the US. If the US does move it will not look good to the rest of the world and especially other Arabic countries...whom could decide to unite.
If we move it would look like an unecessary aggressive move...we would be the bad guy`s. So...if we send abunch of hardware to the area...fire even one shot...Saddam sets of a nuke/bio/chemical bomb in one of our harbors.
And like in a book I read...tells us to leave our stuff where it is and get out or worse things will happen...he gains state of the art stuff and we are screwed. All without him even sending any one overhere and with no loss of life on their part. And to the rest of the world he just says he was defending his county.
I hope some of those think tank folks have looked at this closely. Might be best to let the inspectors see if they can find anything or wait untill Saddam makes some political mistake.
Ken
Saddam...by saying ok...well, that stops nato from backing the US. If the US does move it will not look good to the rest of the world and especially other Arabic countries...whom could decide to unite.
If we move it would look like an unecessary aggressive move...we would be the bad guy`s. So...if we send abunch of hardware to the area...fire even one shot...Saddam sets of a nuke/bio/chemical bomb in one of our harbors.
And like in a book I read...tells us to leave our stuff where it is and get out or worse things will happen...he gains state of the art stuff and we are screwed. All without him even sending any one overhere and with no loss of life on their part. And to the rest of the world he just says he was defending his county.
I hope some of those think tank folks have looked at this closely. Might be best to let the inspectors see if they can find anything or wait untill Saddam makes some political mistake.
Ken
Albany Tom
Enlightened
I'm guessing about contingency plans, but my bet would be that one nuke would lead to Bagdad becoming a glass/sand mixture. That would be the only logical choice for a long term fix.
I saw Colin Powell on an interview about a year ago, with the "media" types attempting to compare our danger from terrorists to that we used to face from the USSR. He explained, and I believe correctly so, that the USSR had the ability to destroy us as a society, while no current rogue country has that ability. This was pre-9/11, and the threat discussed was North Korea, and it's probable nuclear capability. He explained that the North Koreans would need to understand that we do have the ability to destroy THEM as a society. Pretty chilling, but he's not a guy I would want to screw around with were I a head of state.
Iraq's playing a chess game, we had the last move by having Saudi Arabia discuss the use of US bases. I would suspect there's a lot going on behind the scenes... After the last war, there WAS a lot of high tech equipment left behind, or so I have heard. It's in the open that SA is flying AWACS and F-15's. The interview I saw with Swartzkov (spelling) after the gulf war indicated that one of the trigger points of SA letting us use their space before was that Iraq was actually on Saudi soil at the time. Not much over the line, but SK indicated that this upset the King greatly. I doubt that they've forgotten this, or that we kept our promises of involving Arab troops, leaving when we were finished, and not going farther than the UN mandate. People with a US only view may believe otherwise, but I think us keeping our word on these things was a very good thing for US/Arab relations, and because of that, the US.
I saw Colin Powell on an interview about a year ago, with the "media" types attempting to compare our danger from terrorists to that we used to face from the USSR. He explained, and I believe correctly so, that the USSR had the ability to destroy us as a society, while no current rogue country has that ability. This was pre-9/11, and the threat discussed was North Korea, and it's probable nuclear capability. He explained that the North Koreans would need to understand that we do have the ability to destroy THEM as a society. Pretty chilling, but he's not a guy I would want to screw around with were I a head of state.
Iraq's playing a chess game, we had the last move by having Saudi Arabia discuss the use of US bases. I would suspect there's a lot going on behind the scenes... After the last war, there WAS a lot of high tech equipment left behind, or so I have heard. It's in the open that SA is flying AWACS and F-15's. The interview I saw with Swartzkov (spelling) after the gulf war indicated that one of the trigger points of SA letting us use their space before was that Iraq was actually on Saudi soil at the time. Not much over the line, but SK indicated that this upset the King greatly. I doubt that they've forgotten this, or that we kept our promises of involving Arab troops, leaving when we were finished, and not going farther than the UN mandate. People with a US only view may believe otherwise, but I think us keeping our word on these things was a very good thing for US/Arab relations, and because of that, the US.
PlayboyJoeShmoe
Flashaholic
I gotta give my two bits on this...
I think it is a stalling tactic. The time needed to get inspectors in country (where they will be jerked around no end) may be six months or more away. I don't know just HOW good our surveillance really is... but I figure Saddam can move his 'good stuff' around at night, or in milk trucks or... and we will face him sooner or later.
I just hope the trigger for us isn't the nuke in the harbor deal (or say the Houston ship channel which I don't live NEARLY far enough away from!).
But willing to comply? Fat Chance!
I think it is a stalling tactic. The time needed to get inspectors in country (where they will be jerked around no end) may be six months or more away. I don't know just HOW good our surveillance really is... but I figure Saddam can move his 'good stuff' around at night, or in milk trucks or... and we will face him sooner or later.
I just hope the trigger for us isn't the nuke in the harbor deal (or say the Houston ship channel which I don't live NEARLY far enough away from!).
But willing to comply? Fat Chance!
D
**DONOTDELETE**
Guest
I too would agree that it's a stalling tactic, but I'm sure that in the end the weapons inspectors will get messed around and either told to leave the country or leave on there own because they are not able to do what they are there to do. At this point I hope that the rest of the UN will come around to the US way of thinking.
I am hoping that sadam is tieing a rope to climb out of a hole, but ends up hanging himself with it.
I also don't know if he is stupid enough to send a nuke to America, if he does he must know that within a couple of hours of his bomb going off his entire country will be one big pile of rouble.
Tim
I am hoping that sadam is tieing a rope to climb out of a hole, but ends up hanging himself with it.
I also don't know if he is stupid enough to send a nuke to America, if he does he must know that within a couple of hours of his bomb going off his entire country will be one big pile of rouble.
Tim
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I`m not sure he would care.
Also I`m not sure we would act so quickly and risk other US city`s being destroyed. If he were to die...and other bombs did not receive a cell phone "stop countdown signal"... Could be like the seven plages from the bible.
Also...how would we know he would even be running the county from within it.
For example: For all I know Bin Ladden could have been enjoying a show at Disney World when the planes attacked. Hell, you can even change the color of your eye`s now day`s with contacts. We have no idea where he was or is. Or whether he`s dead or alive. His weapon...a cell phone...registered under the name Tom Smith...home security salesman.
Ken
Silviron
Flashlight Enthusiast
We can play "what if" and call for delays forever.
Delaying just allows him to set up more scenarios like some of you worry about.
If you agree that Sodamn Insane is a dangerous man, it is pure stupidity to delay. Kind of like saying "don't destroy that rabid dog because he hasn't bitten ME yet.
Delaying just allows him to set up more scenarios like some of you worry about.
If you agree that Sodamn Insane is a dangerous man, it is pure stupidity to delay. Kind of like saying "don't destroy that rabid dog because he hasn't bitten ME yet.
Seth
Newly Enlightened
Papasan:
Hey... fearless you are?
With this statement, you can be absolutely sure to be in close observation by the FBI / CIA / NSA from now on
In fact, you are right:
If it has oil , bomb it...
If it has no oil, god´s own country is not interested, regardless of dictatorship, violation of international or human rights etc.
In fact, will the U.S. bomb china also?
China qualifies for this... has oil , has a communist ( evil, evil!!! ) dictatorship, has a variety of nuclear, biological & chemical weapons... What do you wait for?
Seth
Hey... fearless you are?
With this statement, you can be absolutely sure to be in close observation by the FBI / CIA / NSA from now on
In fact, you are right:
If it has oil , bomb it...
If it has no oil, god´s own country is not interested, regardless of dictatorship, violation of international or human rights etc.
In fact, will the U.S. bomb china also?
China qualifies for this... has oil , has a communist ( evil, evil!!! ) dictatorship, has a variety of nuclear, biological & chemical weapons... What do you wait for?
Seth
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The FBI / CIA / NSA already monitor CPF. how else would they decide which flashlights to carryOriginally posted by Seth:
With this statement, you can be absolutely sure to be in close observation by the FBI / CIA / NSA from now on
papasan
Enlightened
i'm sure i have a file on me already =). not because of my ideas but because i've been cleared to be close to the president/vp in the past. not bush/chaney (he's not our elected president anyways...the stuff that happened in florida was amazing) but clinton/gore.
even collin powell, last time i heard him comment on iraq, said it would be foolish to go to war. that there was, in fact, no evidence that they have large caches of 'weapons of mass destruction'.
and listening to npr the head of the weapons inspectors from the old bush sr. days said that they were _ordered_ out of iraq, they were _not_ ejected. most probably, in his words, because the u.s. needed a villian and he fit the bill. and that iraq was 90-95% de-weaponized at that time.
it's curious to me that quait, who, you would think, if anyone was in favor of this plan they would be, is completely against attacking iraq. and the fact that suddam's people seem to love him and think he is a good leader.
p.s. doesn't make sense that saddam wouldn't care if we attacked him, why would he okay inspectors then? there must be a decent chance that he would get caught if he's trying to hide stuff. and it wouldn't take 6 months to get people over there...hell, there was probably inspectors sitting at the boders when he okayed the inspections, even if there wasn't 24 hours tops.
maybe people don't like america because we try to tell them how to live. and if they don't like it we bully them with the world bank and the u.n. and our 300 billion dollar a year military.
to paraphrase carlin, america can't seem to make TVs or cars worth a sh$t anymore, but we can sure bomb the hell out of your country.
even collin powell, last time i heard him comment on iraq, said it would be foolish to go to war. that there was, in fact, no evidence that they have large caches of 'weapons of mass destruction'.
and listening to npr the head of the weapons inspectors from the old bush sr. days said that they were _ordered_ out of iraq, they were _not_ ejected. most probably, in his words, because the u.s. needed a villian and he fit the bill. and that iraq was 90-95% de-weaponized at that time.
it's curious to me that quait, who, you would think, if anyone was in favor of this plan they would be, is completely against attacking iraq. and the fact that suddam's people seem to love him and think he is a good leader.
p.s. doesn't make sense that saddam wouldn't care if we attacked him, why would he okay inspectors then? there must be a decent chance that he would get caught if he's trying to hide stuff. and it wouldn't take 6 months to get people over there...hell, there was probably inspectors sitting at the boders when he okayed the inspections, even if there wasn't 24 hours tops.
maybe people don't like america because we try to tell them how to live. and if they don't like it we bully them with the world bank and the u.n. and our 300 billion dollar a year military.
to paraphrase carlin, america can't seem to make TVs or cars worth a sh$t anymore, but we can sure bomb the hell out of your country.
T-Rex
Newly Enlightened
It is not strictly a delaying tactic. He is using the UN to isolate the US.
He will use the UN Security Council's make up to work in his favor, and be able to isolate the US. By eventually allowing inspectors into the country and playing games, Hussein will be able to convince either Russia or China, maybe both, that he complied with the UN resolution 1284, which calls for elimination of weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East. Uh, when was the last time that anyone demanded that UN inspectors check up on Israel's nukes?
This will not convince Bush that he is free of weapons. So the cowboy will attempt to go alone and with a few friends, and create more enemies.
Slightly OT but... What happened to the introspective analysis to determine why certain segments of the world dislike the US so much?
He will use the UN Security Council's make up to work in his favor, and be able to isolate the US. By eventually allowing inspectors into the country and playing games, Hussein will be able to convince either Russia or China, maybe both, that he complied with the UN resolution 1284, which calls for elimination of weapons of mass destruction in the Middle East. Uh, when was the last time that anyone demanded that UN inspectors check up on Israel's nukes?
This will not convince Bush that he is free of weapons. So the cowboy will attempt to go alone and with a few friends, and create more enemies.
Slightly OT but... What happened to the introspective analysis to determine why certain segments of the world dislike the US so much?
Evan
Enlightened
I'd call that "introspection" apeasement. It's as much who we are as what we do. Its our goverment's absolute inability to get our side of the story out, while middle eastern despots convince that their people that their lack of everything is the fault of the US. So a large part of the world believes children are starving in Iraq because of the sanctions, not because Sadaam refuses to use the oil-for-food program. A large number of people also believe Israel attacked the World Trade towers, even though the hijackers were mostly Saudis. We just don't bother to confront these bits of propaganda. And from the resonse from the Iraqi ambassodor on one of the talk shows, I could easily believe that most of the propaganda comes from Sadaam's Iraq.
The inspector on NPR also said because of the changes to the weapons inspection regime to apease our "alies" like France, no real inspections happened in 1997. They left a year later. If we just pick up were we left off, with the same rules, its a wasted effort. The weapons inspectors in the past were delayed for hours while evidence was removed or destroyed.
Add to that, the folks in charge now have stated that they will not cooperate in any intelegence gathering/shareing. So they won't know where to look, or what the things they find mean. God I hate idealistic assholes. I guess they would be shocked, shocked if anyone in the Iraqi regime lied to them. Without inteligence, they'll never know.
I like the idea of one pundit, start by requireing Sadaam to make a true and accurate list of the weapons he has, then If we manage to find anything not on the list we will have freshly proven him a liar, and might be able to convince the French, the Russians, and other alies blinded by profitable smuggling and/or the promise of big contracts with Iraq, that this guy is dangerous. Or maybe they want the US to go it alone so only the US will have to deal with the costs and the terrorism to follow. I doubt we could get the UN to agree to ask for the list, then authorize war if there are any omissions or the inspectors are in any way restricted, but that's what it would take to make inspections worth while.
On the other hand, I watch the US leaders with access to intelegence, or with military experience. Those who have been briefed don't come out convinced, and those who know war first hand don't want to go in. That gives me pause.
I understand the president thinks the CIA assesments are too timid. So he's putting all his faith in "intelegence" brought to him by the Iraqi National Congress--The wannabe leaders of the new Iraq. Could it be that they might shade the truth to get the US to do their revolution for them?
The inspector on NPR also said because of the changes to the weapons inspection regime to apease our "alies" like France, no real inspections happened in 1997. They left a year later. If we just pick up were we left off, with the same rules, its a wasted effort. The weapons inspectors in the past were delayed for hours while evidence was removed or destroyed.
Add to that, the folks in charge now have stated that they will not cooperate in any intelegence gathering/shareing. So they won't know where to look, or what the things they find mean. God I hate idealistic assholes. I guess they would be shocked, shocked if anyone in the Iraqi regime lied to them. Without inteligence, they'll never know.
I like the idea of one pundit, start by requireing Sadaam to make a true and accurate list of the weapons he has, then If we manage to find anything not on the list we will have freshly proven him a liar, and might be able to convince the French, the Russians, and other alies blinded by profitable smuggling and/or the promise of big contracts with Iraq, that this guy is dangerous. Or maybe they want the US to go it alone so only the US will have to deal with the costs and the terrorism to follow. I doubt we could get the UN to agree to ask for the list, then authorize war if there are any omissions or the inspectors are in any way restricted, but that's what it would take to make inspections worth while.
On the other hand, I watch the US leaders with access to intelegence, or with military experience. Those who have been briefed don't come out convinced, and those who know war first hand don't want to go in. That gives me pause.
I understand the president thinks the CIA assesments are too timid. So he's putting all his faith in "intelegence" brought to him by the Iraqi National Congress--The wannabe leaders of the new Iraq. Could it be that they might shade the truth to get the US to do their revolution for them?
Silviron
Flashlight Enthusiast
Here is an article published today by a DEMOCRAT Senator on the subject: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A36908-2002Sep18.html
He happens to be on the Senate Intel. Committee. Maybe the secret stuff that he is privy to has overruled the usual blind liberal hate for everything that President Bush and this Nation stands for.
He happens to be on the Senate Intel. Committee. Maybe the secret stuff that he is privy to has overruled the usual blind liberal hate for everything that President Bush and this Nation stands for.
GJW
Flashlight Enthusiast
Interesting that those comparing Iraq and Israel do so purely on the basis that they both possess weapons of mass destruction. Anyone like to take a deeper look?
Israel is a democracy with a Parliament that includes elected Arabs and Palestinians.
Israel has never launched an offensive war on any other country.
Israel has three times traded land for peace only to have the promises of peace ignored. And they still continue to negotiate.
Iraq is a dictatorship where dissenters are summarily executed.
Iraq has launched offensive strikes on Iran, Israel, and Kuwait.
Iraq dealt with the Kurds, their own equivalent of the Palestinians, by indiscriminately killing them all.
Israel is a democracy with a Parliament that includes elected Arabs and Palestinians.
Israel has never launched an offensive war on any other country.
Israel has three times traded land for peace only to have the promises of peace ignored. And they still continue to negotiate.
Iraq is a dictatorship where dissenters are summarily executed.
Iraq has launched offensive strikes on Iran, Israel, and Kuwait.
Iraq dealt with the Kurds, their own equivalent of the Palestinians, by indiscriminately killing them all.
artar
Enlightened
please take your sunnglasses off and look to the real world.
here is my opinion :
* reichstagsbrand=pearl harbour=11/09/2001wtc
* iraq = lots of ceap oil for the us industry
* isreal = provocationist no1 in near east and rassist, do the same to people what the nazis did to them, they learnt nothing from history
* germany = suffers from history, is constrained to have same opinion like the US (most time the wrong opinion)
* england/GB = arse crawler of the US, did not bear down the loss of the Colonies
my 2 €cents
here is my opinion :
* reichstagsbrand=pearl harbour=11/09/2001wtc
* iraq = lots of ceap oil for the us industry
* isreal = provocationist no1 in near east and rassist, do the same to people what the nazis did to them, they learnt nothing from history
* germany = suffers from history, is constrained to have same opinion like the US (most time the wrong opinion)
* england/GB = arse crawler of the US, did not bear down the loss of the Colonies
my 2 €cents
