Am I wrong?

I recently purchased an item from one of CPF's favorite dealers (who I will not name) and had a very unpleasant ordeal even got into an argument with them about who was right. So here it is I would like your comments on the situation. I called about a D3 body for a SF and was quoted a price of $35 and I ordered it. I knew at the time that I needed O-rings and that they did not come with the item (however there was no conversation with the dealer about this). About a week later I received O-rings from the dealer and thought oh cool they sent them anyhow. Well then I got my Credit card statement and realized they had billed me for the O-rings (not much just $1.68 the money was not the point) and this pissed me off. So I sent them an e-mail asking why they would bill my credit card for something I did not order or approve. Well this is the response I received.

Mr. Timmerman:

I'm perplex with your position. When a body is ordered we automatically
include the rings. It is based on the same principle as getting a
flashlight with bulb and batteries. Therefore, all bodies are sold with
seal rings to assure the client gets a complete body. Sure Fire sells the
their components as individual items, therefore when you order a body that
is exactly what you get. It does not include anything else. When you use
the body with a bezel and tail cap, it will not work properly without the
rings. Hence the inclusion of the rings.

If you are disappointed with our company, it should be based on delivering
a complete package to assure that you rec a working unit as opposed to
wondering why it doesn't.

Jim, please return the rings and we will refund you your $1.68. In
addition, we can do one of two things: post a note that all of your future
Sure Fire body purchases should not include the rings, or two, remove you
from our data base.

Edit (We) prides itself as being a company that only charges the client for that
which they purchase and only at the time of shipment. Your remarks that we
misused your credit card are disparaging and unwarranted, to which we will
take issue.

My response to this was.

What! I personally called to order this item and I was not told of an
additional charge for O-rings! When I order a light yes the bulb is
included, but it is also included in the price. I was quoted $35 not $36.68
if you include O-ring you should also include it in the price . I can't even
believe I am having an argument about this, and with a company that I have
defended on the SFDB and recommended to many at CPF members. (jtivat) So
please remove me if that is your position there are many dealers that would
love my business.

And there reponse to mine was.

Mr. Timmerman:

As previously mentioned, when ordering components from Sure Fire, you get exactly what you order. My apparent mistake, was being too customer focused to assure you would have a turnkey unit as opposed to sending out the body and having you determine on your own that it needed rings. Unfortunately, we are not in the business of giving product away, hence the rings and subsequent charge. To my dismay, I wrongly assumed that in trying to avoid the frustration of the ring issue is caused you much displeasure. Our mistake was that we should have informed you that rings were needed, or just let it go out and have you purchase the rings separately after discovering it did not work properly.

We did quote you $35 for the body and that is what you rec'd. I will issue you a in store credit for the $1.68 in recognition of our error of being too overly concerned for your satisfaction. I have informed my staff to only sell EXACTLY what the client orders, regardless of the potential frustration that may follow.

post a note that all of your future Sure Fire body purchases do not include the rings, or two, remove you from our data base.

The issue is not that we will remove you from our data base, but that we will exercise extremely caution when you place an order with us. The choice is clearly yours.
.
.

Now I am sure some of you my try and guess who this is but please do NOT I am not here to bad mouth anyone. I just want to know if I am being unreasonable or not.

JT,

I aplaud the dealer for going the extra mile and it is unfortunate that the person you ordered from didn't convey the dealer's position of anticipating a customers needs and the accompaning prices and expenses involved in a turn-key solution. They blundered initially by not mentioning the O-rings initially but in reading their responce, I don't see how they could have handled themselves better than they did after the initial blunder.

I certainly don't believe there was any malice intended nor were they trying to "pad" the sale and bring in more revenue. The time it took for someone to add the proper O'ring part numbers and process the aditional order of them is more expensive than the profit made on the O-rings.

Seems to me that after you placed the order, someone went the extra step of trying to anticipate your needs but didn't go the additional step of contacting you regarding this. Of course the cost of a phone call to alert you could well have been more than the O-rings cost.

Again, a mistake was made or at least an error ocurred. If you judge them by intent, I can find little fault.

My opinnion.

- Don

EDIT: Frankly, I would like to know who this dealer is as they obviously have a handle on the often confusing part system of SureFire and I would think they could be a good resource when parts and components are needed.

Don,

agree - seems these are good guys - the name is mentioned in the post "XXX prides itself as being a company" - so why it was said the name wouldn´t be mentioned while it obviously was I also would consider XXX a good candidate for future business based on this episode.

Klaus

EDIT: Name of co removed on request

Umm... first word of the fourth paragraph of the first response...

You might want to take that out..

My bad it's gone(it was a cut and paste error) guess I can't do anything about the other one.

My point is if they are such a good company why not let people know these things up front or just include it in the price. If it was a large sum of money would you be upset then?

JT,

They definately made an error. I just think it was for the right reasons and not malicious. Obviously the principle is one thing and the unmentioned expense is another. I suspect that had they intended to send you an additional component having a significant price attached, you would have hopefully received that phone call. I suspect that a judgement call was made in lieu of a phone call. They made the wrong call.

YC,

I draw your attention to my signature line.

This is a real judgement call.

I've been in situations where I >KNOW< the person will need a doo-hickey, and for whatever reason, they didn't order it.

Would have been better to solve it during the call/email, or phone/email to confirm.

But at $1.68? Not worth worrying about.

At $16.80? Ya, I might *****.

See, there's no RIGHT answer. If 100 people order the body, and 90 will need the O rings, and they are included, there will be 90 "Fans" for the company, and maybe 10 "Non-Fans".

But if you can return 'em for full credit... don't worry about it.

Looks like you and I are on the same wavelength jtivat. I don't like this situation at all.

They should never charge a customers credit card for any amount that has not been authorized, regardless of how much it is. True customer service would have been mentioning the need for o-rings up front. If they failed to do that and still wanted to offer good customer service, then they should send an email or eat the cost of a phone call. You don't just charge someones credit card and send it to them anyway.

How did they know that jtvat didn't have 200 SF o-rings at home in a drawer somewhere? Sorry, but there is nobody here who is going to convince me that this was right.

And I disagree that $1.68 doesn't mean anything to a company. If a company does enough business, any amount is important to them. Why do you think so many companies try to upsell additional small things with your regular order?? (ex: would you like fries with that?). It makes a difference.

And I thought that their emails to jtivat were snotty and condescending.

***edit*** This smacks of a similar situation I was in not too long ago. I had a car battery that was shot. Had a friend jumper start me so I could get to the battery place and told them I needed a new battery. They quoted me a price installed and I paid with my credit card. When I got home, I noticed that they charged an extra fee to "test" the old battery. I didn't authorize this, I didn't need it (I already knew the battery was shot), and they never mentioned it in their quote to me. I made them credit my card for the amount. I wonder how many people a day that they do this to and then they just pay it without a thought. Takes them 2 seconds to check the battery and they make a couple of extra bucks on the deal. They do this under the claims of "customer service" to make sure you actually need a new battery. That's fine, but tell me about it up front and let me decide if I want it done or not. Sorry, but I hate being nickel and dimed to death every time I turn around without being told about it.

Light headed,

You make valid points regarding charging a card for anything more than the authorized amount. The comparison re: asking if you would like some fries with that I don't think is quite comparable to adding O-rings to an order without prior authorization. Any presumed additional profit certainly was lost by taking the time needed to respond to an e-mailed complaint/question/ concern which, BTW, seems to be missing in the thread of correspondence above. There is certainly a tone in the e-mailed responses from the vendor but that can only be judged fairly by viewing the text being responeded to, IMO.

Anyway you slice it, the vendor made a mistake. JT was entitled to to take exception to this mistake in whatever manner he felt appropriate.

On principal and in fact, the credit card charge can be contested. Additionally, JT has no obligation to use this vendor ever again.

The title of the post: AM I WRONG ?
I think only JT can make that call, ultimately.

In the process of composing this responce, this horse died for me.............

- Don

Hmmmm....all I have to say is that if I were XXX I would just refund your money, let you keep the O-Rings, inform my phone sales people to make sure people know exactly what they are getting (This means they should have informed you that you would need O-Rings and asked if you would like to purchase them at that time), and get on with life...

As a customer, you are allowed to be upset--but they seem to be making it a lot harder for themselves then it should be.

Hmmm....I wonder what companies out there are high suggested around here and can be abreviated in 3 characters...

Originally posted by McGizmo:
You make valid points regarding charging a card for anything more than the authorized amount. The comparison re: asking if you would like some fries with that I don't think is quite comparable to adding O-rings to an order without prior authorization. Any presumed additional profit certainly was lost by taking the time needed to respond to an e-mailed complaint/question/ concern which, BTW, seems to be missing in the thread of correspondence above. There is certainly a tone in the e-mailed responses from the vendor but that can only be judged fairly by viewing the text being responeded to, IMO.
- Don

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good points Don. The whole "fries" comparison was meant to be a little funny and not really meant as a direct comparison. It was just the first thing that popped into my head. The *edited* portion of my first post above was a little better comparison.

Just tried to make a point that small upsells to people who pay without question can certainly add up to revenue for a company.

And you are correct.....JT could have opened up a can of whupass and sent it to them in his initial email to the vendor. That might help to explain why the vendor took such a condescending attitude.

I think the smartest thing the vendor could do would be to simply refund the money if someone takes the time to email and complain. I once had a boss that used to tell me his philosophy on retail customers. A satisfied customer may not mention a word to anyone about your service. A dis-satisfied customer may tell 10 others about their ordeal. And for every dis-satisfied customer that takes the time to complain to you about your service, there may be 10 other dis-satisfied ones that you never hear about.

***edit**** I just read Saabys post. That would have been the smartest thing that they could have done.

Tough one for sure. The only error here was that the company did not inform you of the additional price of the O-rings, as you have pointed out. It is unfortunate that the company doesn't seem to realize that while they had good intent, there is no excuse for not contacting the buyer before billing beyond the amount that was authorized. The company in question seems to be comfortable with the fact that they sent you items beyond what you agreed to pay for. The "customer focussed" thing they should have done is discussed the need (and cost) of o-rings with you when you first placed your order. Sending them and billing for them as a surprise, is NOT great customer service.

Too bad, really. But like McGizmo said, it is tough to get the entire picture without the full conversation.

Don,

Well that's no excuse!

YC

jtivat; I agree with your extreme displeasure. If what you have posted is everything of what they have said, to me, they are really off base. The picture they are painting is that if you can't understand what they have done for you, with your choosing, they should be very careful when dealing with you in the future or they should just forget this ever happened and have you promise to deal with someone else. This is very, very, very bad customer relations. In my business, you would get fired immediately for using this forceful language. In a nutshell, they are saying is "they only wish to deal with core SF fans and if you don't appreciate the extra mile they will help you with being a proper SF owner, then deal with someone else"...

The sad part about this is that I am not a SF fan, nor do I want to change anyone's opinion on this, but this would not sell me anything on SFs. This dealer seems to be so strung up about SFs, that they are trying to weed out the purist from the would be fanciers. Treat the fanciers well, they may become tomorrow's purist. I would not make any excuses about this dealer. What if it was a fine upscale car and the auto dealer treated you like this? Selling flashlights should be no different...

YC,

I used the word "again" to indicate that I was repeating myself. I take it that this doesn't read this way? Or am I missing something else. Go easy on me

- Don

Is grammer and sentence structure critique of text on topic, off topic?

I'm agree with JT. No company should charge customer credit card without authorization, regardless of the reason. XXX made this harder by asking JT to post a note about no O ring in future purchase or remove him from database. XXX should train their sales staff better, not requesting customer an extra steps that shouldn't be necessary, and sound offensive. At least to me it is sound offensive and little bit arrogant, by put their mistake on customer shoulder...

I don't think you're wrong at all... No company has a right to "include" billable extras that a customer has not requested.

I actually thought that this company was handling the issue pretty well until their comment on "taking exception" to your remarks that they improperly billed your credit card - when that is exactly what they did..

I don't think this is over a $1.68 but rather that you were given an incomplete estimate for the parts you wanted. Presumably that is why you asked for an estimate - to compare prices between dealers.. Had they offered the parts as "being needed" this never would have happened.

I hope this company will honor it's statement to you that they intend to tell future customers "EXACTLY" what they're ordering and being billed for for. Otherwise, they'd get a similar response from ME had this been my order..

I recently changed plans with my ISP. They had agreed earlier not to charge me an additional fee as there was a mix up when I joined up.
To my horror they deducted $60 from my CC for the plan change. After five weeks my CC was eventually credited with the full amount. This seemed an intentional act and by no means was it accidental.
JT, IMHO, your incident appears an unfortunate error of judgement but probably still avoidable.

Opps sorry here is my original e-mail to them.

At 10:08 AM 9/13/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Edit (Name of owner), I did not realize that you where actually charging me for this! I
>know it is only $1.68 but the point is I did not order these nor did I give
>you permission to bill my credit card. Needless to say I am very
>disappointed in your company.

Also to clear up one other point the person I spoke with to place my order was the owner of the company.