Frustrated and disillusioned newbie...

After a long time lurking I stumble into this forum.
I paid ludicrous prices for two Inova X5's from House of Knives (in guildford mall surrey) a few years back - $89 Canadian. Later I paid the same for a T2.

I am here because, with dismay and utter disappointment, I just found this thread on these forums titled "Now I'm really getting worried about lithium batts..."

I am so angry and disappointed. Not at Inova or any light manufacturer, not at the lithium batteries (they were supposedly only for camera's originally right?) but at myself for not having found these forums sooner and done more research. I would never have spent so much on these lights had I known how vulnerable they were. The weak link is the batteries they contain?!

What is the use of a flashlight that is nearly indestructible when the batteries it contains can't take the shock of the light being dropped hard and being abused? Can I ever drop my X5 hard and not be terrified of the lithiums outgassing? How about a hard throw of my X5 onto concrete - the light may well survive, but will the batteries? The whole point of buying the X5 was how tough it was, how it could take a real beating, drop, crush, pound, pulverize, vibrate and shock.

But now... do I have to baby these lights? Treat them as though they were made of eggshells? Or with respect, fearful of the batteries they contain, as though it were explosives laced with toxic chemicles that will vent hydroflauric acid if handled wrong? This is so sick and unfair. I am utterly speechless. I want to throw these lights and their sicko battery bombs a mile in rage and disappointment.
Anyone local want to buy them? Who in their right mind would want to deal with this garbage, how can you live under this cloud?
I can drop my old Maglite's and the only risk is a broken bulb.

:scowl:

Lithium batteries explosively venting happen to a very small minority.

If you do a bit more research you will learn that lights such as Surefire's weapon lights run on CR123A batteries and can survive the shock of a firearm's recoil just fine.

My own personal experience, I have tossed around, dropped and abused many CR123A powered lights and have easily gone through over a hundred CR123A batteries and never even had a hint of a problem.

So bottom line, I think you are overreacting.

Cydonia, welcome to CPF.

Any battery chemistry will leak and/or explode if subjected to the same type of abuse under which lithium batteries fail. The difference resides in the magnitude of the :devil:

In any case, I don't baby any of my high-power lights (nor I plan to). SF, Pelican, Streamlight and many other lithium (and li-ion) powered lights are used daily by soldiers, fire fighters, LEO's, etc. in really harsh conditions and subjected to abuse the regular flashlight user will never encounter and, yet, I believe the rate of failure is low (we pay more attention to it because it's rare and more dramatic than an event with a regular battery).

Sure, I am careful: I use matched cells when possible, don't overdischarge, don't recharge, don't disassemble or burn lithium cells, use good quality manufacturers, etc. But those are common-sense operation procedures for any battery chemistry, so I don't treat my lithium-based lights any different than a regular minimag.

To further add a bit of perspective to the lights you own: the X5 has a relatively low current draw (which makes reverse charging less likely under most conditions), and the T2 is not a light I'd consider a "high-powered" light (and high current drain + mismatched cells is what seems behind the explosions).

Me? I'm not worried, but YMMV, of course.

Well ... how about looking at it from another perspective?

If you hadn't found that article, would you have still formulated the apprehensions that you seem to have now?

How hard is hard? Have you ever dropped those lights before?
I think you may be over reacting to the contents of that thread. It's not as if these batteries haven't been used in flashlights for the last 20 or so years in situations where the light may not have experienced some harsh conditions or usage (e.g. law enforcement.)

Has anyone had a cell vent from being INSIDE A FLASHLIGHT being dropped?
The account here was a naked cell (onto a cement floor).

AndyTiedye said:

Has anyone had a cell vent from being INSIDE A FLASHLIGHT being dropped?
The account here was a naked cell (onto a cement floor).

Click to expand...

I never had the problem of cell venting when it is dropped. I have protected cell lithum from Pila. It is a work horse battery and tough as a tank.

Well, greenLED brings up some good points. High drain and mismatched cells do indeed carry the higher risk. Brighteyez too, is correct, if not for that and the other threads about lithium incidents I would never have known or had a second thought about it.

Maybe I'll just tuck the ol' X5's away in the emergency kit and forget about em'. And store the lithiums separately in mini zip lock bags? (Is that a really safe long term Cr123A battery storage solution?)

Anyway, after the initial overreaction I'll go back to sleep now, all relaxed and at ease...:sleepy:

Just take things that you read on web sites with a grain of salt. Especially on forums where posters can get a bit melodramatic with their postings and sometimes take a bit of artistic license (okay, call them fibs) in their descriptions. While that's not to say that these incidents did not occur, I do know that they have occurred with other people and have received even warning bulletins on some imported CR123 batteries. But millions of people have safely used CR123 batteries in both flashlights and cameras without harm or any incident. While you should exercise reasonable care in the use of these and other batteries, I don't think it's anything to become overly alarmed about, especially since appear to be using them in low current draw LED lights. I'd say go ahead and enjoy the X5 and T2. You're more likely to be hurt in the pocket book with the cost of the CR123 battteries.

Cydonia said:

Well, greenLED brings up some good points. High drain and mismatched cells do indeed carry the higher risk. Brighteyez too, is correct, if not for that and the other threads about lithium incidents I would never have known or had a second thought about it.

Maybe I'll just tuck the ol' X5's away in the emergency kit and forget about em'. And store the lithiums separately in mini zip lock bags? (Is that a really safe long term Cr123A battery storage solution?)

Anyway, after the initial overreaction I'll go back to sleep now, all relaxed and at ease...:sleepy:

Click to expand...

I'll just quote Doug Ritter in his blog entry regarding Lithium batteries:

I will continue to recommend primary non-rechargeable lithium battery powered flashlights and survival equipment. I am not getting rid of my Surefire lights or other lithium battery powered lights or gear. Their advantages are too many to be put off by what appear to be easily avoidable problems that at worst are extremely rare. Buy quality gear, use quality batteries, use them properly and as designed and don't worry.

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The full blog entry, for those who are interested, is located here: http://www.equipped.org/blog/?p=42

The Great Lithium Battery Menace is grossly exaggerated.

As mentioned above, lithiums DO require a bit more care and attention in their use -- just as driving a Ferrari mandates greater user precision than one might exercise if driving a farm tractor. Just use QUALITY batteries, and use 'em SMARTLY.

Current battery technology is better than ever before, but it ain't perfect. Still, we now have illumination options unimaginable 5 years ago.

Regrettably, the general public's awareness of these options -- and their concommitant user knowledge -- is sadly lacking. OTOH, the public's knowledge re standard alkaline battery pitfalls is ALSO lacking. Intelligence and Situational Awareness cannot be legislated.

I believe the Great Lithium Scare is comparable to the news media's incessant focus on U.S. military deaths in Iraq (now at approx. 3,000) which dramatically exaggerates the big picture. Consider that the U.S. lost 425,000 in WWII... and 58,000 in Vietnam. (Sorry I don't have Canadian stats here.) And we're wetting our pants over 3,000 WOT U.S. deaths? (I do not use this analogy casually, but I can -- because I'm a heavily-vested war veteran; so please park extraneous political objections.)

Similarly, with all the hullaballoo over a very minor percentage of lithium battery problems vis-a-vis the millions in use, what is needed here is PERSPECTIVE.

TonkinWarrior said:

I believe the Great Lithium Scare is comparable to the news media's incessant focus on U.S. military deaths in Iraq (now at approx. 3,000) which dramatically exaggerates the big picture. Consider that the U.S. lost 425,000 in WWII... and 58,000 in Vietnam. (Sorry I don't have Canadian stats here.) And we're wetting our pants over 3,000 WOT U.S. deaths?

Click to expand...

It's worse than you suggest TonkinWarrior. 3000 deaths over three years time in Iraq is 1000 deaths per year. During "peacetime" the US armed forces average 400 to 500 deaths per year due to training accidents, plane crashes, etc.

The extra 500 or so deaths per year incurred during the invasion and occupation of a foreign nation is an incredibly low casualty rate.

The so-called "news" media know these figures - they aren't completely uninformed, merely completely disingenuous.

The "news" media is really nothing more than a propaganda organ of the Democrat party. It will go to any length to insure American defeat, just as it did during the Vietnam War.

Please don't clutter up OUR flashlight forum with YOUR politics.

I'm right with you TW and RZ. I'd like to say more but don't feel this is the place and would suggest starting up in the Cafe or deeper.

BOT...... I've gone through almost a hundred 123's and the only incident was with a 2C 3x123 mod I set up for a friend. He apparently left it on, draining the cells. One of three must have been mismatched and one cell negatively charged and another vented. The only thing that happened was the switch cover popped off and the reflector fogged. I regret not checking the cells before I handed them out. I've also dropped lights with no ill effect save for the finish.

No ill experiences here with lithiums. I use them as I would anyother light and no probs so far.

Stepping around anything else, I personally have absolutely no problem at all with lithium batteries. In fact, I'm going to join Dan over at DansData.com and say that CR123s are probably the best batteries available to consumers today, provided you nab them from a reputable online source.

Because they have such a high energy density, there are things that can (and eventually will) go wrong; just as it will with anything else having those qualities. Do I think having my L1 in my pocket is a ticking time-bomb? Nope. Admittedly that's a one-cell design, but let's pretend I had an L4 or something that uses two batteries and the answer is still exactly the same.

My personal buying habits are always for quality over quantity. I'm rather uninterested in ZTS testing every single cell I buy, so I buy good, high-quality cells - in my particular case, Energizers (from BatteryStation). Now, Energizer has a rather stout reason from a business perspective to make their batteries good, because they are a company that makes batteries. Therefore, I feel that buying these 123s and using them as prescribed lowers any danger I might be in.

Furthermore, I have always felt that mixing old and new batteries - especially with something like a lithium 123 or AA - is a sign of very poor decision-making skills. Energizer (or Surefire, or Duracell) is under no obligation to save me from my stupid self - and every battery carries a warning to not mix with used cells, or with cells from another manufacturer.

The CPF group as a whole probably uses literally hundreds of thousands of 123s a year, possibly even more. Even with that rate, factoring in human stupidity, mistakes and brain-farts we really do not see a "problem" with exploding batteries. If there were three threads a month about detonating batteries I would have a problem, but it seems more like two or three threads a year from my perspective. The apparent odds of anything going wrong appear to be what you may call spectacularly low.

That being said - do accidents happen? Well, of course they do. Just like paintball tanks leaking, or the fume-seal on a jerry-can of gasoline failing, or a firework just detonating on the launch pad. Nothing is foolproof, ever. It is the acme of delusion to think that anything ever will be.

I have to inject even more opinion into this post and say that part of me is appalled at how readily some people will live in fear. I am completely unconcerned with lithium battery technology - I even have an Apple Powerbook G4, and while I was not affected by the Sony cell recall it wouldn't have perturbed me in the least if I had been. New battery, slap it in, end of problem. I have twenty Energizer CR123s on my shelf just hanging out in the plastic baggies BatteryStation shipped them in. They're arranged such that they can't short out, but I like to think of that more as common sense than factoring in a fear that they might OMG explode.

I have always wanted battery technology to begin to catch up with the pace of the devices they power. With lithium primary batteries like the CR123, I believe we are getting there. I'm fully satisfied that a 123 is a pefectly safe product - just like an alkaline AA or a bottle of shampoo. With increasing energy densities the potential energy in these things can only go up - that thrills me more than I can put into words.

Call it a tired line, but I refuse to live in fear; of batteries, of automobiles, or of the hundreds of grizzly bears around my house every year. Based on the available evidence and personal experience, I have to say the 123 "problems" are firmly in the catagory of "non-issue." I have better ******* things to do with my time than cringe in a corner fretting and wringing my hands about what mind-bogglingly idiotic thing I'm supposed to be scared of today.

Buy quality and apply a little critical thinking to things like this - you might be astounded at the results.

Don't you know TV rots your brain, anyway?

Sable:

That is one wise-insightful-thorough-excellent post!

Your engineer's refreshingly practical perspective is appreciated.

I agree with most of the comments here. DON'T WORRY. If you don't use 123's you are missing out on some seriously good flashlights out there. If you like flashlights, a little risk is OK, and there is basically no risk. Live life & enjoy!

Don't feel bad - I paid the equivalent of around $US80 for my X5 out of ignorance. Now that I'm older budweiser, I do research on the net until my eyes bleed before I drop cash on my stuff - but that's life. Nobody's born all-knowing...

With regard to CR123a's. I'm pretty careful with my lights, but my X5 has a few dings in it from careless handling. And guess what? I've never had a prob with either the light or the batts within after dropping it.

I wouldn't advise throwing it against a wall, but why would you want to do that anyway? Slap a decent wrist or neck lanyard on it and even dropping it will become a very rare event.

If you are really bummed about CR123a's for an EDC light, get an AA powered one. There are plenty of good ones out there (Fenix L1T, Jetbeam II). But don't waste time with a brick and mortar operation. Get it online! CPF will show you the way...

I'm a newbie too and an owner of an Inova X0, which runs 3v rechargeables just fine ( x2 ). The 3v cells (rechargeables or primaries) shouldn't overdrive the Inova regulator and the 3v charger shouldn't overcharge the cells. As soon as it gets dim the cells should be swapped.

The key points for me are:

Is the light well regulated?
Are the cells protected?
Are the cells reasonably well matched if I'm using >1? (same batch/charge)

Now, as another newbie here new to the Great Lithium Panic, my precautions will consist of keeping my G2 in a belt holster (too big for jeans pockets anyway), knowing what to do if the damn thing starts to really heat up or hiss loudly, and not letting my daughters use lithium flashlights. They've got engraved pink minimags to play with and like those way better anyway!
Oh, and knowing what to tell the doctor if it goes kabloom.