LEO's self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

In another thread ( http://www.candlepowerforums.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002976#00 0017 ) this topic came up.

In doing some reading on the Streamlight web site, I found three articles where major police (Chicago, Orlando, and Philadelphia) forces are forcing Police to use smaller, bright, light weight, polymer lights, that cannot be used a an impact weapon.:

http://www.streamlight.com/releases/inquirer.htm

http://www.streamlight.com/releases/lando.htm

http://www.streamlight.com/releases/chicsunz.htm

I do not understand this. A LEO can carry a gun, and a baton, and use them when necessary, but cannot use a flashlight, in an emergency, as an imact weapon?

I am not an LEO, but this bothers me. I think that "BAD" leo's will abuse victims regardless of if he has a "club flashlight" or not. The problem is the bad LEO, not the flashlight.

Also, if an LEO CHOOSES to carry a small lightweight flashlight, that should be his option.

What happens when a normal traffic stop becomes dangerous, and you are at arms length away from the assailant and you have your flashlight in your hand? The LEO has to put the flashlight away, and get out his baton or gun?

I don't think that criminals should be clubbed unmercily with a flashlight, but I also think that an LEO should have all the tools available should he need them.

Victims improply getting beaten after they are immobalized is a LEO "problem" not a flashlight problem.

What are your thoughts on this?

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

If I were given a choice what to be clubbered (sp?) with, I'd definately choose the baton over the flashlight. Chances of survival are much better that way IMHO...

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

One component of this may be that municipalities have received so many lawsuits over citizens being the recipients of alleged misuse of aluminum flashlights that the city's insurance premiums became too expensive. If all your LEOs carry them then anybody even speaking to your city's finest can claim foul. The sad part is that there is a bit of justification for this concern. The really sad part is that some of the people that found out about this type of litigation took advantage of it. The extremely sad reality is that insurance companies needed to raise premiums. It only takes a few Mil. + settlements to make this happen.

Please note that I'm only trying to shed some light on this. IMHO LEOs should be able to carry the tools they need to protect me. Again IMHO, only professionally trained LEOs can determine all the tools they need. If they need LARS rockets who am I to say that is too scary? Remember the tank plowing through the neighborhood?

Then there is another view. Citizens' rights. That is a very long and continuously debated subject. That is why I am exuberantly happy that the US has three branches of government.

I'm saying that litigation, government and budget has allot to do with why my local LEOs can't carry 6C Mag-Lites. That is why I have one. To anyone thinking this is a good thing; be careful. If you strike another person with a big Mag you may find yourself charged with a felony. (Depending on the law in your area).

Growing up I watched all the Cop/Det. shows. I always wondered why many of them carried snub .38s and wore slippery street shoes. Sure, that was '70s television but it did reflect reality. I'm glad to see that is no longer the case.

All this only one person's point of view trying to add to the greater understanding. Please don't flame on me. This issue is flambouyant. I could have just said 'insurance' and left it as that.

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Were you referring to the "L.A.W.S." rocket in your post above, Icebreak?

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

There's been a few instances where a large Al. flashlight may have been the cause of death in a few cases; the most famous of which occurred in the midwest some years ago (but I forget which city).

Personally, I'm carrying smaller lights for weight reduction and personal preference. My Dept. policy does not restrict what type of flashlight is carried.

As for an impact weapon, the basic Al. flashlight has a lot more mass than a 26" baton, and thus will cause more damage.

--dan

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Dano-

Thanks for your expert info. I hope it was clear that I was being carefully respectful of professional LEOs and the citizens they passionately protect.

vcal-

As we have you and I have discussed we may be both right. Or maybe we are both wrong. LARS: Light Anti-Tank Rocket System. LAWS: Light Anti-Tank Weapons System. Maybe one of the many military experts at CPF can say.

Everyone else that read my humble comment:

Right and wrong are obviously not the pre-determining factor in many situations. I would like to think that right and wrong are the final variables in all situations. On the issue of whether or not a police officer can or cannot carry a large mag depends on how their area governments rule on the issue. Many times the rulings are based on budgets and budgets are affected greatly by insurance premiums.

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

I think what the LEOs need is a light that is built to about the same weight as a baton. Then he/she can use it as a baton with the same results. But a large Mag is harder and heavy-er than a baton, and will do way more damage.

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Originally posted by dano:
There's been a few instances where a large Al. flashlight may have been the cause of death in a few cases; the most famous of which occurred in the midwest some years ago (but I forget which city).

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was Malice Green in Detroit. One witness' account and a picture of the mag lite in question can be found here, and the overall synosis of the case can be found here.

As for myself I usually feel adequately armed by my formidable but less visually threatening Lightwave 4000. Too bad their lack of "throw" makes them unsuitable as main duty lights.

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Hey, with the comments on "citizens", let's not forget that cops are citizens, and civilians, too. The "us vs them" attitude is a bad thing all the way around. It breads bad cops, and leads to the general lack of respect, often justified, toward law enforcement these days.

The thing about flashlights used as a weapon applies to everybody, not just cops. That 3D maglite you keep under the seat can, and likely will, be considered a deadly weapon if used in a fight. Just like a knife or gun, because it can kill people. Blunt head trauma is not a good thing. People being knocked out, and waking up later with just a headache is television, not reality. Reality is brain swelling, possible permanant damage, possible death.

It's *NOT* a good non-lethal weapon. Carry pepper spray or something, if it's legal.

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Kind of reminds me of a situation long, long ago in a jungle far-far away...

We got a new company commander- He joined us while we were on a long range patrol. In addition to my normal load of equipment, I was carrying a set of nunchaku (nunchucks)... (I was the batallion's assistant "hand-to-gland" instructor, and taught the use of "chucks" to those interested)....

Anyway, five minutes after he joins us in the field, this cherry captain sees me carrying them, and walks up to me and told me to "consider yourself under arrest for carrying a deadly weapon.".....

I say back to him:"What kind of #@((!^& idiot are you????; We are both carrying fully automatic weapons, plus you have a .45 and a REMF looking Bowie knife, and you want to charge me with carrying a deadly weapon for having two sticks on a cord?????".... Then, I did something that I'm a little ashamed of, (but not involving the two sticks on a cord, thank goodness)....

Fortunately my Batallion Commander (with whom I had a little good "history"), was about 20 feet away, and came over and calmed things down. Told me when we got back into base camp to grab the first transport out and go on a week's R&R.

When I got back, I had a retroactive promotion and the new company commander was transferred out. So all turned out well for me, I guess, (although I often thought that promotion was maybe WORSE than the courts martial I deserved; but that's another story...).

But, it just goes to show you what soldiers in the field and cops on the beat have to put up with from cherry commanders (and lawyers too).

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Originally posted by CNC Dan:
I think what the LEOs need is a light that is built to about the same weight as a baton. Then he/she can use it as a baton with the same results. But a large Mag is harder and heavy-er than a baton, and will do way more damage.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What about this as a compromise product?

ASP BATON LIGHT

Brightnorm

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Totally agree that Bad LEOs, NOT bad flashlights, or batons, or guns, or anything else a bad person might use to harm another.

Frankly if one of our good guy cops needs a 6D Mag, I want desperately for him to have it!

My Cousin is a GOOD LEO. He carries a cocked and locked 1911! And a Stinger. And he is going to get me his LEO discount on a Stinger HP!!!!!!

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

So then I guess the chief would NOT appreciate it if I put this in an over the shoulder sheath..like a samurai sword!!??!!

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

WHAT is that thing? a 15C maglight!

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Part of the body reminds me of a Brinkmann 5-3-2.

If I had a couple more of those, I could have up to 15+ D cells!!!

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Banshee's picture looks like the 12C Kellite that's currently being auctioned on EBAY.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=737497231

Opening bid is at $9.99

I like the 7 cell dummy spacer it comes with so you have a choice of running either a 5 cell or a 12 cell bulb.

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

I have a book from way back that talks of flashlights and self defense from the law enforcement perspective: "Defensive Tactics with Flashlights" by John G. Peters, Jr. c)1982. I was never a LEO, but a training course was offered to us paramedics by law enforcement. Anyway, that book has several flashlight legal cases in the back. They're pretty interesting. Based on those case reviews, I doubt I'd want to be a LEO who was caught going at someone - even softly - with a large flashlight. All us paramedics walking into that class swagging around with our big 'ol Maglights, but then the instructor pulled out his Mini-Mag. That's when the pain started. I didn't know my friggin' wrist could ever hurt so bad. We learned Kubaton techniques with those Mini-Mag's. Much more discrete that wailing away with a D-cell light. And pretty darn incapacitating for a weenie like me. You'd think I was a wet dishrag the way I was taken down and controlled by my fellow classmates. That book I mentioned covers defensive tactics with large Maglights, but not the "bang 'em atop the head" way of doing things. That's pretty much a big no-no if you want to save your $&*^(?! in court.

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Originally posted by Banshee:
So then I guess the chief would NOT appreciate it if I put this in an over the shoulder sheath..like a samurai sword!!??!!

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We should call this flashlight the "Babe Ruth", or "The Slugger", or "Conduit", or "The Long Arm of the LAW!"!!!!

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

If you whack somebody with a 5D maglight you better be able to say "I feared for my life" with a straight face!

edit: sorry maybe that could never apply to an leo, huh? Just everybody else.

Re: LEO\'s self defense with Flashlights, why is this wrong?

Originally posted by dano:
.....As for an impact weapon, the basic Al. flashlight has a lot more mass than a 26" baton, and thus will cause more damage.
--dan

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dan,

Wouldn't this be a product that addresses both the lighting and impact issues? (repost)

ASP BATONLIGHT

Brightnorm