Defensive lights

Narcoman

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Hey all,

This is my first time posting here and I love what ya all done with the place. If you could offer some advice for me I would appreciate it. Basically, I am looking for the brightest light for the buck. I work as a federal agent and like to carry a 1911 magazine pouch with Wilson combat Surefire holster when I am carring concealled. I need a surefire that will do several things.

1. Be brighter than 100 lumens if not brighter
2. Fit in the Wilson pouch (same size as G2)
3. Be cost effective (Less than 150 dollars)

Is there any surefire mods I can make to meet these criteria's? Burn time doesn't mean a whole lot to me as it will be used exclusively as a defensive light. I want something that will really put somebody on their butt!!

Thanks!!
 

beezaur

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Hi Narcoman, welcome to CPF!

How about a SureFire 6P with the bright lamp assembly (P61)? 120 peak lumens of "blammo" for 20 minutes.
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/889/sesent/00

You can use the same lamp assembly in a C2, G2, G2Z, and Z2, if you like those lights better.
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/895/sesent/00
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/878/sesent/00
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/24186/sesent/00
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/198/sesent/00

I am not sure if all of those fit the holster though.

Scott
 

Raccoon

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For the best brightness for your buck, doesn't incandescent still hold the title? I own a 10 million candle power light (slightly bulky) that uses a vehicle high-beams that will put a twinkle in anyone's eye.

Strobe is also the way to go if you want to disorient someone. You can DIY with a handful of disposable film cameras and a little background in electrical engineering. Just ask any grocery store if you could have a few cameras from their recycling box. I'm up to a few dozen now, for my ultimate home security epileptic seizer weapon. ;)
 

VWTim

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The problem I've found with strobing is that while it disorients the person you're lighting up, it also disorients you. Sounds like a 6P with a P61 lamp assy would be the way to go. FWIW if you're using it a lot inside in the dark I've found just under 100 lumens to be the perfect, not blind myself, level of light. But your eyes might need more or less.
 

g36pilot

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I concur with VWTim's 6P w/P61 lamp recommendation. For concealment & EDC use this should be fine. Statistically concealment tools are for use in close to medium distances.
 

Lighthouse one

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Wolf eyes 6 volt incan (sniper)...output 120 lumens....and the new Lumens Factory bulbs...160 lumens in a small 5" package. MIne is on the way- can't give a test report yet. CPF discount until Jan 31st...Other members may have their's already- and should give a report under incandescent lights. You can also get the LED tailcap...so you can read in the dark too!...It's a low level LED...works great. Check out the new Cree LED lights by huntlight and Fenix..I believe the fenix has 130 lumen output in a tiny single 123a package.
 
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bones_708

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I would go with r123 in a 6p with a p90 or g90 bulb. I find it's brighter than the p61 and you save on batteries as well
 

harddrive

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bones_708 said:
I would go with r123 in a 6p with a p90 or g90 bulb. I find it's brighter than the p61 and you save on batteries as well

Bones, Could you explain this option too me a little further. I use a standard sf 6P with primary cr123a cells and didn't realise I could use a P90/P91 lamp assembly. Will it only work if using R123 rechargable cells? Do they make it a 9V light? Could you recommend a brand of battery and charger. Thanks.
 

InfidelCastro

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I thought the P90 with RCR's was less bright than a P61 on CR's, but that's just me.

It was pretty close though.
 

FsTop

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Seems to me that if a flashlight actually worked as any kind of defensive weapon (other than as a club), you would see it used in the movies.

Do any of you actually think that a light is going to keep you safe from an assailant by putting a small temporary purple spot in his vision?

I'm very skeptical - got any news stories to show that it's not just BS and marketing by SF?
 

CQB

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FsTop said:
Seems to me that if a flashlight actually worked as any kind of defensive weapon (other than as a club), you would see it used in the movies.

i know what you mean. I dont recall seeing any sort of example where the GG uses a flashlight to disorient the BG, but perhaps I just dont watch enough movies. :) Then again, I do remember seeing numerous scenes where SWAT officers are coming in shining their high-output tactical lights and the BG hiding in the dark, waiting for the impending doom.

FsTop said:
Do any of you actually think that a light is going to keep you safe from an assailant by putting a small temporary purple spot in his vision?

Short answer: i do not believe any flashlight will keep me safe, by itself. But I do believe any TOOL is better than no tool. And with that tool we need to add TRAINING.

99% of my flashlight uses is general utility. But as a habit, when walking to my vehicle after a night shift is over, I have a small unobtrusive light in one hand with the keys in the other. Scanning the environment I make my way to the car. If someone came up to me hopefully I would have enough of a reactionary gap to either break away quickly (ie. run away) or close in and engage. The flashlight could and would be used similarly like a flash-bang grenade: used to disorient the BG. Do I believe my flashing the BG's eyes with my 100+ lumens will make him stop & drop? No. But my actions that come after the initial flash may very well do that.

A flashlight is not OC spray. So it's not like the BG will cower in discomfort and yell stuff like, "I cant breathe! I can't see!!". Rather it will induce a flinch-response that can be maximized by someone who is trained to maximize such an opportunity. And that flinch response might not have been there in the first place without the flahslight.

FsTop said:
I'm very skeptical - got any news stories to show that it's not just BS and marketing by SF?

No *real* street-level stories for ya from this hombre! Just training with buddies and my brohters (one's a cop).

I'm a CQB H2H instructor by trade and I agree with what I believe is your main point: that by itself, a flashlight will NOT do very much. And anyone who believes otherwise may learn the hard way that it will definitely take more than lumens to stop and change the mind of a committed assailant.

AWARENESS and INTUITION is the foundation for any street/life application. Ensure you start with these two tools first. Then add to your arsenal as needed (ie. additional tools, training, etc).

last point: I think the original post was asking for the brightest output light (stock or modded) to best support his current plainclothes rig. I am confident he already has training and experience to effectively use such a tool (like a flashlight) to maximize his chances for coming home safe, and that he wasn't being foolhardy by thinking a flashlight is all he needs to fight the BG.

be safe!
CQB
 
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tron3

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Narcoman, check out th Striker-VG at www.ledlogic.com.

Not sure about the holster part, but it is definately brighter than 100 lumens and has a strobe that could blind a fried egg. Also in your price range.


I own one myself. Definately brighter than the rated 3 watts because of the collimator optic. As I understand it, instead of just reflecting the light, it gathers it up and throws it out light brighter than the wattage.

This 3w light is brighter than any 5w light I own.
 
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bones_708

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harddrive said:
Bones, Could you explain this option too me a little further. I use a standard sf 6P with primary cr123a cells and didn't realise I could use a P90/P91 lamp assembly. Will it only work if using R123 rechargable cells? Do they make it a 9V light? Could you recommend a brand of battery and charger. Thanks.

I'm not sure you could use a p91 but p90, g90, WE 9v, all will work well with r123. When newly charged you're over 8v so........

You can use reg cr123's if needed but your light will be dim, yellow, and it will prob screw with the life of the lamp. Then again if it's that are being in the dark........

I would hate to recommend anything but for me I use unprotected cell (Which means you must be more careful) with the highest rating possible which will give the brightest light and longest run time. Lighthound is a great retailer and has DSD chargers and unprotected cells at 880mah and 900mah. Check and search (try the flashlight electronics section on CPF) before buying because you'll find many people who are smarter and know more than me who have already gone over this subject (batteries)

http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2179
 

Raoul_Duke

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I'd go for two Batterystation Protected RCR 123's ( lighthound sells them.) Or two of AW's RCR 123 cells.
AW's cells should handle all 9volt lamps exept the P91.)

They can both handle most 9 volt lamps Like the Surefire P90, or if you can still find them, Digilight DRB HP lamps, or the G&P G90 HP's.

I havent had to much luck with the generic blue protected RCR123cells. Some required a double tap to light the lamp, and this woulden't suit your needs.

I prefer protected cells as they prevent overdischarging, and stop any dangerous reverse charging, but they will just shut off without much warning when the cells need recharging. Simple to keep topped up all the time though.

Lumens factory have just started selling 9 volt lamps that would fit the G2

You may need to upgrade the plasic lense to a UCL glass lenze.

Personally I'd get a couple of AW's RCR 123 protected cells. and get a handfull of lamps such as the surefire P90, maybee a few from Lumens factory, and some HP or high presure ones from digilight or G&P and see which lamp you like more.
 

Templar223

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Narcoman,

Welcome to CPF.

beezaur said:
Hi Narcoman, welcome to CPF!

How about a SureFire 6P with the bright lamp assembly (P61)? 120 peak lumens of "blammo" for 20 minutes.
http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/889/sesent/00

You can use the same lamp assembly in a C2, G2, G2Z, and Z2, if you like those lights better.

Scott


Scott is right on about the high output lamp assy for the SureFire 6 series. If you're looking to do it on the cheap, buy the G2 or G2Z.

There have been some other fine lights mentioned in this thread, but the G2 / 6P series are pretty much the standard and will not only fit your gear, but a host of other good gear. Some of these other lights may be great, but their non-standard size will cause you grief down the road. Add to that SureFire's well-deserved reputation for 'bulletproof' reliability.

VWTim said:
The problem I've found with strobing is that while it disorients the person you're lighting up, it also disorients you.

I too have heard stories about the great effects of the Gladius' strobe causing great discomfort for bad guys.

So a fellow firearms instructor and I tried one out on a blacked out indoor range one day while the students had a break. It was pitch black.

I had ZERO discomfort or disorientation and had no problem covering 30' to deliver slashing blows with a training knife.

We reversed roles and while Terry said the strobing effect made him a little queasy, he too had no problem coming right to me -- and this is with the light bearer moving the light agressively in a variety of patterns AND moving. (ETA: By moving the light aggressively, you're likely to put your hand in front of the muzzle of your gun - a major safety boo-boo. That's doubly not a good thing if you decide to fire. There's a time for flashlights and a time for shooting. Just make sure you don't get so fixated on your flashlight handiwork that you forget where that weak hand is in relation to the muzzle of your gun.)

IMHO, the Gladius doesn't impress. It's not that bright and it has a relatively narrow beam. While giving it a test drive, it didn't inspire a lot of confidence in us that it would last - the switch wobbled, the plastic parts didn't screw together very smoothly and it felt as though it might fall apart any moment (maybe the *new* one we played with isn't like the rest of 'em?). And the pricetag for this poor performance is $200-250+ bucks. I'll take my L2 or 6P with HOLA (which feel like they're built like tanks compared to the Gladius) any day over a Gladdy... or better still, a Mag951 (!) which'll make em cry for mommy up close and make 'em run from further away.

Do the G2 with the HOLA and you'll be a happy camper. It's (relatively) cheap, lightweight, easy to create and will give you good service until the new Crees come out from SureFire. Your fellow agents will be asking what you're carrying after they see it in action the first time and will be buying their own shortly after that.

John
 
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VWTim

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For a duty light I'd also stay away from unprotected LiIon's. If something bad is going down the last thing you want to worry about is explosive venting with flames.
 

bones_708

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VWTim said:
For a duty light I'd also stay away from unprotected LiIon's. If something bad is going down the last thing you want to worry about is explosive venting with flames.
Come on! :wtf:
The thing you should be worried about it running the light dead and ruining the batteries. That's it. Anything else and you should lock yourself up in the house because it obviously too dangerous to walk the streets.
 

Willabbott

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VWTim said:
For a duty light I'd also stay away from unprotected LiIon's. If something bad is going down the last thing you want to worry about is explosive venting with flames.

Well I admit I don't know much about batteries, however I DO know that the last thing you want to worry about in a fight is your equipment, you want good gear that will work when you need it and "hopefully" not malfunction... the realities of combat are right with Murphys Laws, especially the one about "whatever can happen, will happen" when you need your light most, is usually about the time it fails, either bulb failure or battery failure, or others.... That is why 2 lights is a minimum for me, I try and carry one incan and one LED since the LED has a lower failure likely hood.... And knowing VWTim personally I'd trust his opinion when it came to batteries, as I know he knows more about them than I.


In a fight there's another rule we use, and thats is 1 is none, 2 is one, 3 is 2, etc... so 1 light is not great since it's possible to fail when you need it, especially with only a ~20min runtime or so...


Now having been on the recieving end of flashlights I can give some input....


Yes the Gladius is anoing as heck, does it make me sick or anything? NO! but it's anoying as heck... As VWTim said, that is a reciprical effect though, it's going to annoy you as well.

I've been on the recieving end of numerous flashlights in force-on-force senarios (for those not in the know, this is reality based firearms training with training knives and airsoft in place of real firearms, we've been doing this type of training on-top of our firearms/unarmed training for several years now, since before it became popular)

I don't know that anyone had a 100+ lumen light at any class I've been at, but it's highly possible... I can tell you I couldn't tell the difference (on the recieving end) between a Scorpion (Manufacturer claim of 114lumens, and appears as if it is brighter than a SF 6P @65lumens) a 6p, a gladius, e2d, etc... I could only tell because of things like strobe, or that one was an LED because of color, that's it. When you have night adapted vision, any bright light shined directly into your eyes is going to mess that up, even if only for an instant...

When it's dark out a light shined in your eyes won't nock you on your butt (sorry not gonna happen) however, it will disorient, and distract, maybe only for a split second, but a split second is an increase in reactionary gap, which is very usefull, action is faster than reaction, so slowing your attackers reaction time down, gives you more advantage, or if they were already taking action puts them into reaction mode giving you time to react.

A light isn't going to stop them from finding you as mentioned, as all they have to do is follow the light, however they are going to have a hard time seeing you, and an even harder time seeing what your doing.


As far as movie reference go watch the "Sum of All fears" theres a scene where Liev Schreiber's character "John Clark" is staring down 2 russian's with rifles, he doesn't have his handgun, but has his light, which he uses to distract them long enough to draw his pistol putting them into a stale mate. Now it's not a good representation of "real life" but it is IMHO a good representation of how a flashlight can be used as a distraction, and one that could work in reality.

Real life scenarios of lights doing something, I'm sure they are out there, we never hear about good stories like people not having to shoot someone, the media doesn't like those, they prefer where someone had to shoot a BG or what not... I'm sure I could find a few stories if I asked the right people, however I highly doubt they will be published, except in something like the American Rifleman, or a Handgun magazine.

Now I have yet to do a force-on-force scenario where the goal for me as a BG was to cover ground on the GG, however I can tell you I can fire in the general direction of the flashlight, and thats about it, depending on the flashlight technique that is usefull, as certain techniques (namely the FBI/Modified FBI) place the light away from the body and if that's what I'm aiming for odds are I will miss. Of course the students (Good Guys) usually have other issues, such as chosing to get into a firefight with me instead of just exiting the building, and failing to notice another BG being tied up dealing with me, so situational awareness and avoidance ARE your best tools for defense, flashlights help situational awareness, and do give an advantage in dark areas.... I don't know of a flashlight in existence that will knock an attacker down, or keep them from getting to you except the model or 2 which have OC built into them, so you can not only shine a light in thier eyes but shoot a stream of OC at them as well... haven't ever seen or used one, but sounds like the only way a flashlight will ever have a chance of knocing someone down.



Just my 2 cents, and in my humblest of oppionions, I don't claim to be an expert or anything else.
 

VWTim

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bones_708 said:
Come on! :wtf:
The thing you should be worried about it running the light dead and ruining the batteries. That's it. Anything else and you should lock yourself up in the house because it obviously too dangerous to walk the streets.

I've been under the impression that with Li Ion cells in series if ran down too far and the cells aren't perfectly matched that you can backcharge (not the correct term, but it escapes me) and that can cause serious issues. If I am completely mistaken please let me know. Sure with perfectly matched cells you're fine, but rarely in the real world is everything perfect.

It's for that reason that I only use Li Primary's in my "tactical" save my butt lights. Plus they run longer. But some utility lights use protected and unprotected Li Ions.
 
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