Why does Fenix lie about their lumen ratings and why are they able to?

EsthetiX

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All their lights claim to be way brighter than they actually are. I'm not bashing fenix, I think their lights are great but they straight up lie about lumen ratings. How are they able to get away with this?
 

Coop

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Lie is a big word for this. There is no real standardmethod for measuring output. There are various units to express the properties of light (lumen, lux, candlepower) while these are all different, they are often used to indicate the 'ammount' of light of a flashlight. And measuring equipment/process is expensive (integrating spere and stuff like that). Therefore a lot of lumenratings are calculated. These calculated ratings are often based on optimal situations. Another thing to take into account is the color of the light. As the human eye isn't equally sensitive to all colors, a light than produces 100 lumen in color A can seem brighter or less bright than a light that produces 100 lumen in color B.

Because of the calculations and measuring processes varying from manufacturer to manufacturer, there will be a lot of differences between them. So it's not really fair to compare lumenratings between brands. If you look at the ratings per brand, you'll see that (most of the time) the ratings are pretty consistent.
 
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carrot

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If you think Fenix's ratings are off the wall... why don't you check out Inova's and Maglite's claims?
 

greenLED

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The same way other manufacturers do. That's why by principle you don't trust manufacturer's output numbers unless they've been verified independently (by us, of course).
 

dyee

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Just guessing but there is no standardized method of light measurement for flashlights, unlike projectors. So if they can get a get a measurement they can advertise it.
 

Raybo

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All manufacturers should use the candle power rating.

IMHO it's all for the "Joe six packs" that have no idea.

Ray
 

mdocod

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same way sony and pioneer and kenwood and all them cheapo china brands can build 5 watt amplifiers and advertise them as 100W per channel. because people will buy it because they are uninformed.
 

Manzerick

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it's almost like the "EPA" gas mileage estimates. My car is rated 18c/28h yet I average 19 per gallon. This would seem normal but I do 95% highway driving which should equate to (28*.95)+ (18*.05)= 27.5 .... Even given loss and any "tuning" issues one could point a finger at this is way low...
 

cy

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don't think fenix lies about lumens ratings....

seems they do rate output at source VS out the front end like surefire. what counts of course is what you get out the front end.

saw 40 lumens for lo-ti... thought there's no way possible. actual output of course depends upon individual light, but mine puts out lumens way less than a standard ARC LSH-P. which is noted to put out aprox. 25 lumens.
 

not2bright

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mdocod said:
same way sony and pioneer and kenwood and all them cheapo china brands can build 5 watt amplifiers and advertise them as 100W per channel. because people will buy it because they are uninformed.

mdocod, thank you. So many people are fooled by this as well. I believe that Fenix's claims are more accurate than most of the main-line cosumer home/car audio ratings.

I remember hearing that many of the amplifier ratings are "ILS" - If Lightning Strikes. And the speaker wattage handling ratings are "JBF" - Just Before Flame. :grin2:

Maybe one exceptionally binned light put out close to the advertised claim during the first hundredth of a second of a new lithium cell...
 

EsthetiX

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greenLED said:
The same way other manufacturers do. That's why by principle you don't trust manufacturer's output numbers unless they've been verified independently (by us, of course).

Good point. i never bought anything by mag or inova. Anyway... yaaah All these manufacturers claims seem to be waaaay off.
 

Long John

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EsthetiX said:
Good point. i never bought anything by mag or inova. Anyway... yaaah All these manufacturers claims seem to be waaaay off.

:huh2: Your statement is not correct. Why is it a lie, when a manufacturer like Fenix claimed the ratings of the manufacturer of the Led's?

Since there is no standard for the light output of flashlights for all manufacturers, there is nothing wrong to claim the rated Lumens-output of the Led before all the loss due to lens, reflector, heat.........

You as a member here should know this before you accuse others to lieing.
Only my opinion.

Best regards

____
Tom
 

lightrod

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cy said:
.....seems they do rate output at source VS out the front end like surefire. what counts of course is what you get out the front end.....

My guess as well - my measures of their lights to date show actual out-the-front about 75-80% of the advertised level - pretty close to what you might expect out the front vs at the LED. Surefire is consistently right on or above out the front vs. their advertised, but I am afraid they are in the minority.

I have made the point before that especially for high quality (priced!) lights I am disappointed when output given is based on at the source and not out the front - will give you it's not necessarily a "lie", but it can without doubt be mis-leading! Maybe call it a "white lie"? Or "not the whole truth"?
 

dulridge

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Manzerick said:
it's almost like the "EPA" gas mileage estimates. My car is rated 18c/28h yet I average 19 per gallon. This would seem normal but I do 95% highway driving which should equate to (28*.95)+ (18*.05)= 27.5 .... Even given loss and any "tuning" issues one could point a finger at this is way low...

Or use a UK gallon which is quite a bit larger (about 30%. there are 160 (UK) floz in a (UK) gallon, but a UK floz is a bit smaller than a US floz) And then allow for steady state driving - not that I have ever been able to do that on any road at any time...

Once averaged 47mpg over 600 miles on real roads - but for about 300-400 miles I never got above 40mph due to traffic congestion, but never dropped below 37mph either so was able to drive in 5th gear all the time. This was mostly due to an exploding oil refinery and major roads being closed as a result. A 10hr drive took 16.

Or if you really want to see the most wildly optimistic ratings see characters/pages per minute on any printer. It might just be possible to acheive those ratings but I've never seen it in the real world and I do this sort of thing for a living.

And I expect manufacturers' lumen / candlepower ratings to be useful? No I don't.
 
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Turbo DV8

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mdocod said:
same way sony and pioneer and kenwood and all them cheapo china brands can build 5 watt amplifiers and advertise them as 100W per channel. because people will buy it because they are uninformed.

I read that a rule of thumb to figure how much a car amplifier actually outputs cleanly is to halve the rating and then deduct another 10%. So, an amp rated at "Awesome 400 watts into four channels" (notice they don't say per channel) actually puts out 100 W/Ch less 50% = 50 W/Ch less 10% = maybe 45 W/Ch if you're lucky at a reasonable distortion level.
 

zeeexsixare

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Turbo DV8 said:
I read that a rule of thumb to figure how much a car amplifier actually outputs cleanly is to halve the rating and then deduct another 10%. So, an amp rated at "Awesome 400 watts into four channels" (notice they don't say per channel) actually puts out 100 W/Ch less 50% = 50 W/Ch less 10% = maybe 45 W/Ch if you're lucky at a reasonable distortion level.

I don't get it... why is it 50% then another 10%? Why not just say 45%? Or are car audioers just bad at math?
 

TigerhawkT3

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It's exactly the same, mathematically, but it's a lot easier to divide by two and ten than to multiply by 0.45. Just like multiplying (or dividing) by 5: it's easier to multiply (or divide) by ten and then divide (or multiply) by 2.
 

Ikonomi

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While I agree with your sentiment, I'm not sure Fenix is the best target. There are much more inflated claims out there. I'm a fan of Inova flashlights, for example, but they're the worst offenders this side of those cheap Chinese manufacturers when it comes to "lumen" ratings.

But yeah, I hear you. If we listened to many makers, we'd all believe we had single-AA, 26,000,000 candlepower/130 lumen, 17-hour regulated, 12W LED "Xenon" flashlights in our pockets.
 

Coop

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Turbo DV8 said:
I read that a rule of thumb to figure how much a car amplifier actually outputs cleanly is to halve the rating and then deduct another 10%. So, an amp rated at "Awesome 400 watts into four channels" (notice they don't say per channel) actually puts out 100 W/Ch less 50% = 50 W/Ch less 10% = maybe 45 W/Ch if you're lucky at a reasonable distortion level.


No need for that BS... Just look for power ratings of car amps on the box. if it says XXX watt PMPO, you know above rule is needed, if this is the case, the amp is not worth buying. Now if the power rating says XXX Watt RMS, then you're looking at something possibly interesting. If a manufacturer doesn't even bother to specify what kind of measurement was used to get the power rating, don't bother unless the manufacturer has a good name in car audio scenes.
But then again, power isn't everything... I prefer an amp with a good signal/noise level (my Signat amp is only 4x40w + 1x100w, but has a s/n level of -105dB) Powerful enough to give you a decent headache and ringing ears, with a clean sound that would make most audiophiles drool (too bad the accoustics of a car are complete crap)...
 

NAW

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I'm to bored & tired to read everything...

Basically there are 2 types of lumen ratings. Bulb lumens and lumens out the front.
 
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