Strange lighting problem...any ideas?

I'm renting a flat at the moment, we have been for about 3 months (I'm a student). This place is even really nice, the last place had a cat flap WITHOUT a flap! Any way, there was a note in the flat when we moved in which said to ONLY use 60w bulbs. So that's what we have been doing...but they keep blowing, one at a time, every 2-3 weeks (that's brand new bulbs I only just bought!!).
Any ideas on what's up?
Cheers for any advice people

sounds like you need some electrical work.

have you had problems with any other electrical equipment? do you use surge protectors?

i would try it with a higher wattage bulb, and see what that does, if it is blowing the 60, maybe you should try 75, just don't leave it unatended for too long i guess, as the sockets might be plastic instead of ceramic.

sounds like something you should take up with the owners.

I would guess your line voltage is too high. If you can check it with a meter it should be above 122. You could get higher voltage lamps; most places carry 130v as specialty lamps vs. the common 120v lamps. Also compact fluorescents wouldn't mind the extra voltage as much, but again they are more $. But if you're paying the electricity bill maybe CF's are the way to go.

I am a land lord and do installation and contracting for theatres here in the states. I would definately NOT put in 75 watt bulbs. As a land lord all I can say is the legal troubles if there were a fire, and England's(all of europes) fear of fires sets you on a bad side. Sockets rated for 60 watts ARE ONLY rated at 60 watts. A 75 will work as it slowly burns the plastic down.

First you need to determine if there is an electrical problem so you can force the landlord to fix it. You need a Fluke or other qulity Digital multimeter like the Fluke model 80III that does duty cycle. I have done a couple tours over there and your power should be within 10 volts of 220(i blieve) without a varience of about 2-3 volts every 10 secs. The model 80 also will show you duty ycle which should be in the 47-55% range meaning the wave fluctuates almost evenly above and below neautral.

I would suggest switching over to compact flourescent spiral lamps if they are available there. We can get 4 13Watt lamps at home depot for about $10 here in the states. 13Watts is as bright as a 52 watt regular lamp and 14 watts are equal. Hell if you wanted a 60 watt compact is about 240 watts regular. The spirals are a nice color. They come daylight and tungsten balanced, so there are two colors to choose from. There are also magnetic and electric ballasts, but that really only matters if you want them to start in the cold. They take about 5-20 seconds to reach full brightness and no longer flicker thanks to frequency doublers. The biggest drawback is also thier benefit. Colors will seem brighter but blonde hair may have a slight green tint and it really is not the best bathroom light since skin tones are also a little off. My house and all of my rentals have these exclusively. They really do pay for themselves on the electric and last from 3 - 7 years. Lights in the bathroom that get switched a lot may not last because the tiny ballasts built in are what usually fails.

I only recommend the spirals, because they have a better ballast and color compared to the u shaped lamps. The cheapest ones have the worst color rendition and are the shorter life. The more expensive ones do not have the green shift problem nearly as bad because they use more expensive powders in them that flouresce at a better color temperature.

That is my 2 cents.

If possible I'd measure the voltage from an electrical outlet at several times throughout the day. The reason for different times is to catch any problems that may only show up when few people are using much electricity or when many people are.

Heaviest use times (in the US) are the morning "get up and get ready" time and the "let's all fix dinner" time. The neighborhood evening meal prep is usually the absoluely heaviest.

Middle of the night (around 3-4 AM) is usually the lightest.

I don't know what your voltages should read there, but here the nominal is 117 volts RMS and if it often gets over 126 volts RMS it can and does cause problems. Here most light bulbs are rated for use at "120VAC" but one can get "contractor's bulbs" that are rated for 135 volt service (says so right on the bulb, too).

The higher voltage bulbs aren't quite as bright since they are slightly underpowered, but they last MUCH longer.

Best advice? Befriend an electrician and have him look things over.

And if it were me, I would NOT use higher wattage bulb and possibly overload poor wiring. In fact, to reduce load on the wiring, and to reduce the lamp outages I'd consider using screw-in florescent replacement lamps.

Many of them can withstand higher voltages and voltage peaks. Florescents put out about 5 times the light for the same wattage, or in other words, you only need one with about 1/5 the power draw for the equivalent light.

Good luck,


EDIT: Looks like Lessing and I were typing similar things at about the same time - he's a faster typist, though.

At least you got very similar advice from two independent sources.

T

WOW! Thanks alot guys I didn't expect such quick and in depth replies...the people of this forum are great! Any ways, I'm now off to the local hardware store to look over my bulb options (I don't have a volt meter). Being the UK we'll have half as much choice, for twice the US price!!

Something else that you can check, without a volt meter:

Do you notice the lights flickering or momentarily flaring a bit brighter than usual? That can indicate large surge loads on a single phase center tap system, which will put momentary overloads on your lamps.

-Jon

a bad neutral will cause this too.
if you see lights get real bright on one side of your home but dim on the other when a heavy load is turned on get it fixed asap.

Such the strange one I am thinking.....

FYI the standard voltage in the UK is 240 volts, though the Europeans, fond of meddling with our affairs, changed us down to 230 a while back. But in reality, nothing changed except the tolerances. Mains voltages are allowed to be up to about 250 volts, and down to about 220, not sure of the exact values though. and of course, not varying significantly over time. If you have more than 250 at any time, give your landlord/electrical co. a call as there`s something seriously wrong.

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Compact Flourescent lamps in this country are quite different to those in the US. The Spiral type used to be hard to find, and I also find there is no difference in quality compared to looped types. I`m fond of the Philips lamps, but not the SL Economy - cheap as chips but not so good, only 3000 hours.

Good spiral lamps can be obtained from Screwfix Direct ( http://screwfix.com ) - and the best thing about theirs is that they are the same size as a regular bulb, so they`ll fit just about anywhere! The price is nice too.

I would warn that our CFLs are not so forgiving about higher voltages and they will be likely to fail prematurely if subjected to high voltages, just like your current bulbs do.

Extended Life incandescent lamps- the "10 year bulbs" that are occasionally seen - might be a good choice if your voltage problem can`t be sorted as they are designed at a higher voltage, to be under-run on a normal supply and hence live longer. But they can be expensive, and hard to find.

--

Snake, in the UK we don`t have the same supply arrangement as you guys. From my understanding your supply is a two phase setup -two opposite phase "hot legs" and a neutral. Here, homes/appartments get single phase or three-phase suplpies. Three phase supplies are rare in domestic setups, at least, to have more than one phase per dwelling is rare.
Three phase supplies don`t usually have a neutral, you get the 240v supply by going accross two phases. Phase to neutral is 415 volts, and that one is only ever seen in "industrial" applications. Maybe a large home with a full air-con system or heated swimming pool, but that is very rare and reserved for the rich only.

Is the power designed for computers and other devices with a SMPS?
132v is an advantage for SMPSes as they will work better.
CFL power supplies are just a type of SMPS, so they will benefit from the increased voltage.
Beware that brownouts can cause a problem(my friend has an exprience with the A/C units tripping the breaker when the lights dim, the new A/C units use SMPSes?).
In the U.S., 3-phase power is common due to the lower voltage(you get 240v across any two hots, you get 120v from any hot to neutral).

Kev,
I'm not an expert, but I know that GE (I think) makes bulbs that are supposedly more surge resistant. You can get them just about anywhere that sells lots of light bulbs (Home Depot, etc.)

They are a little more expensive, but they might be worth it if they last. Hope this helps.

-Mike

English houses are wired weirdly, too.

Everything goes in a loop, but there's no way to tell that I know of when the loop is broken. The idea is two power feeds for each device, from each direction, for redundancy, but without an indicator that one half has failed, not too helpfull.

Also, I think until very recently they didn't use grounds, maybe even not have a neutral at all.

The British have made some great stuff, like Rolls-Royce with some awesome engines, but electrical systems generally haven't been one of them. See "Lucas, Prince of Darkness" as an example.

Oh, US household service is single phase, 120/240 with a center tapped grounded neutral. The distinction is important, because our electrical grid is 3-phase, and that is taken into any but the smallest neighborhoods. Usually a small group of houses shares a transformer on a pole, that taps off of one of the three phases. There's a ground for the neutral at the pole, and at the service entrance of the house. The neighborhood overhead lines are typically 13 thousand volts. Regulation of the grid is usually very good, and pretty technical.

Albany Tom:

Gee, when I lived in the UK I thought it was weird that the lighting was typically on a 24 volt circuit while everything else was on 240 V (or was it 220 volt?)

I had no idea of the dual source loop.

I remember that we had a central brick heat sink in the center of the living room that was electrically heated during the low cost electrical power hours in the wee hours that heated the house during the daytime with power off.

At night you'd cuddle up to the electric fire that was placed in the fireplaces that you are not otherwise able to use unless you have smokeless coal.

Hello, thanks again every one for the reams of advice! I'll probably go and mention the problem to the agents on Monday and see if they can have some one have a look at it. With the light bulbs, I went and looked at that the bulbs mentioned...but because I'm only here for another 8-months it will probably be cheaper to just buy lots of conventional bulbs than even one energy saving/better quality bulb. Oh, if only money was never a factor...hey then I could just move

Lemlux

The only way you`d have 24 volt lighting is if there were MR16s being fed from a step down transformer - and then, they`re usually 12 volts. Possibly a central-battery maintained emergency lighting system but you don`t find those in domestic houses.

Electric Storage Heaters - I remember those, vaguely. When we moved into this house back in 1985, I was only a kid but remember the big heaters full of bricks. Only four of them in the whole place. They`d be nice and warm at 7AM but by about lunch time the whole place was cold again! Gotta love that gas-fired central heating we had installed the very next year

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I tend to believe that the UK electrical system is one of the safest in the world, but also the most over-engineered. It has been like it for over 50 years - yeah, in the olden days some things didn`t have grounds/earths, there were about 20 different configurations of plugs and outlets, some stuff was powered from the light sockets . But it was OK, and not everything needs grounding anyways. Like you USAnians with your 2 prong plugs. Why fit a ground wire and extra plug prong to a double-insulated plastic bodied TV or table lamp? We don`t have a choice - all our plugs have 3 pins and integral fusing. Sure, you don`t need to use the ground if it`s not necessary, but it`s there.
Serves two other purposes too - firstly acts as polarization. We have a defined neutral conductor that is always on the same side (left side looking at the outlet, with the earth pin at the top - over here the earth always goes at the top), marked in the 3 pin plugs. Buy a multiway adaptor or extension cord and the neutral always comes out the same side too. The Earth pin`s second duty, at least in a lot of outlets, is to open the integral safety shutters that are required by British Standards. Most are released by the longer earth pin as it goes in first. Some rely on equal pressure in both holes from the Live (hot) and Neutral pins - poke a screwdriver in one side only and it`ll stay shut but the correct sized pins pressing equally will open them. Most use the Earth-pin release though.

Our plugs also have part-sleeved pins. Ever notice how a US 2 prong plug makes contact with the power before it`s pushed all the way in? See the bare brass prongs? They`re live! In this country, outer plastic sleeves moulded over the top half of the Live/Neutral brass pins prevent live pins from being exposed when the plugs aeren`t pushed all the way in. Old ones don`t have the sleeves, but all new ones, for about the last 15 years or so, do. The Earth pin isn`t sleeved, but it doesn`t really need to be.

Now, I`m not saying the US electrical system is bad, far from it. I hate the fact that we have to have these huge 3 prong plugs on everything, when only 2 pins are needed. Adaptors and power bars are enormous! You should see things under the bench here....And they`re so damn expensive to buy, not that that`s a bother much these days as every appliance you buy has a plug prefitted.

If you want a wierd electrical system, go visit Europe! Now they *don`t* usually have a designated side for Neutral, at least not in France. I have several French electrical cords here, adapters too, and on some of those, the Neutral/Live(hot) pins are transposed on opposite sides of the adapter or cord! These are 3 pin grounded cords! No markings in their re-wirable plugs either. I can only guess that somewhere, one of them is Neutral-ized like the rest of the world does, and they just rely on double pole switches everywhere to ensure that the live bit does get switched off when required.

But I could be wrong.....hope not though

"In the U.S., 3-phase power is common due to the lower voltage(you get 240v across any two hots, you get 120v from any hot to neutral)."

Um, no, star, once again...you should research before being posting.
You'd measure 208V between phases in a 3 phase system. 120V from hot to neutral.
BTW, thats a nice LCD monitor you have there, why do you keep trying to tell us it's an LED monitor?

Actually, in the US there are several different sorts of three phase power used.

Most common in offices is 120/208, where you have three phases and a neutral. The phase to neutral voltage is 120V, and is supplied to outlets and lighting fixtures. The phase to phase voltage is 208V, just as luxO described.

Less common, but sometimes used in industrial applications is 240V three phase with a center tap on _one_ of the secondaries, but no neutral. The line to line voltage is 240V, and all three phases of 240V is used to power things like electric motors. One of the 240V legs is center tapped, and the center tap is also grounded. This provides 120V for lights and outlets, but has the ugly effect of making the 3 phase system unbalanced relative to ground, which can mess with insulation systems. I'm pretty sure that no-one would install a system like this anymore, but they do exist.

Far more common is to use 277V/480V three phase to power your machine tools, with the 277V going to your lighting and single phase loads, and then have separate distribution to provide your 120V.

Common in houses is _single_ phase power, 120/240V where you have a center tapped 240V secondary on your distribution transformer. You ground the center tap to provide two hots that are 240V apart, and a line to neutral voltage of 120V.

There are many variations possible, including isolated ground systems in which the transformer secondary is _not_ grounded at all. This permits machinery to keep working even when there is a ground fault, and permits a person to come in contact with an single 'hot' without the risk of a shock, but has the danger that a ground fault could remain undetected. Isolated ground systems _require_ some means of 'ground fault detection'.

To get back to the original poster's problem, if your system is any of the sort that depends upon a neutral connection, then the voltage 'available to do damage' is about twice that which is normally supplied to the load. Any failure of the neutral connection (either a true open circuit failure, or even just increased resistance) can cause the voltage supplied to a load to fluctuate substantially when other loads are switched into the circuit. Be on the lookout for lights flashing brighter when motor loads (say the cooler or a pump) turn on.

-Jon

Originally posted by Chris M.:
I tend to believe that the UK electrical system is one of the safest in the world, but also the most over-engineered. It has been like it for over 50 years - yeah, in the olden days some things didn`t have grounds/earths, there were about 20 different configurations of plugs and outlets, some stuff was powered from the light sockets

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I told you my info on UK systems was based in part on info from some electrical type friends that lived in the UK many, many years ago, and on a trip to Ireland I took 10 years ago, you'd probably take a swing at me! (Meant no harm)

The discussion is reminding me of something I've always heard from engineers, though, and it's that the US system is designed to protect against fire, mostly, while the British and European systems are designed more for electric shock. US children typically learn at an early age how to not plug in a device. This is almost always harmless, as the tendancy is to grasp both prongs while plugging in, so the "bite" goes through your fingers. Easy to pull away.

Our 2 wire plugs are usually polarized, and will only fit in one way. Their are some really old outlets around that don't have these, in which case the plug won't fit at all. I've always thought the polarization thing is a bad idea, as in some devices is relied on for safety. It's too easy to cross wire a device for hot/neutral, and there's no warning when this is done. Oh, if a new device has a non-polarized 2 wire plug, it's double insulated, and doesn't matter which way you plug them in.

Glad to know you guys are using grounds!!

BTW - I loved the control room pictures on your light site.

Chris M:

The 24 V lighting I'm talking about was in the "holiday rental" flat (second floor) in a private home near Kensington Gardens that I lived in in 1978-1979. The house had separate outlets for lighting vs. applicances.

What I remember as 24 V may have been 20 V, but I don't think so. This very old house was probably rewired twice over the last century or so.