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Thread: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

  1. #1
    Enlightened EngineeringGuy's Avatar
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    Default ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Okay, this is really frustrating for me. I had to edit the content of this posting because I felt a bit uncomfortable about it... sorry.

    Aparrently in March/April, a well known high power LED manufacturer is introducing a new product which will be quite competitive with current product offerings from the likes of CREEE and SSC. They have "alpha parts" (pre-production parts) now, which are already in the same ballpark as CREE/SSC and they are supposed to get better.

    I think you guys can sort of fill in the blanks.
    Last edited by EngineeringGuy; 01-12-2007 at 04:00 PM. Reason: Removed some content (Decided my neck was sticking out too far... sorry)
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Cool. I expected something to be in the works. A couple months would be good time.
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    Flashaholic* StefanFS's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    That is very good news. Hopefully they will be compatible with previous offerings when it comes to size and radiation pattern, not to mention leads. I'm sick and tired by now of SSC and Cree for modding, Crees are a pain to get centered and SSC feels like "why did I ever try to do this, must be the vodka giving me ideas". Unless it is just so much hot air. Don't think so though, to much at stake for them.

    Stefan

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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Why do you feel uncomfortable posting names/details? How was this information acquired? I think this post is pretty useless to say that, someone will be coming out with something better sometime soon, without more details. Is this a touchy subject on CPF that I am not aware of?
    Last edited by jch79; 01-12-2007 at 04:14 PM.

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    Flashaholic* Nitroz's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by EngineeringGuy
    Okay, this is really frustrating for me...

    Aparrently in March/April, a well known high power LED manufacturer is introducing a new product which will be quite competitive with current product offerings from the likes of CREEE and SSC. They have "alpha parts" now, which are already in the same ballpark as CREE/SSC and they are supposed to get better.

    I think you guys can sort of fill in the blanks.

    As long as this "High Power" company does not come out with this LED and want to charge two times the cost of the Cree and make them impossible to purchase anywhere.

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    Enlightened EngineeringGuy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    There are such things as NDA and confidentiality clauses in most industry... The information I came by was in an e-mail direct from within said company. I reread the e-mail (including the confidentiality statement) after posting and decided to remove details.
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Interesting... then I guess I'll remove my mention to said company, unless someone says otherwise.
    john

  8. #8

    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Now you are making me scared to post info on this next gen K2.. wait.. did I say that? Anyone should be able to guess it will run just like the K2 but with efficiencies similar to Cree. I bet it will be over 300 lumens @ 1.5A.

  9. #9

    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by EngineeringGuy
    There are such things as NDA and confidentiality clauses in most industry... The information I came by was in an e-mail direct from within said company. I reread the e-mail (including the confidentiality statement) after posting and decided to remove details.
    Yeah, "somebody" working at "wherever" telling "us" about "something" that hasn't been announced yet could quickly find "themselves" looking for another "job" if it gets traced back to "them".


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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    An unnamed source has confided in me that an undisclosed company in a not to be mentioned part of the world will soon be releasing an Led of indescribable brightness with extremely high efficiency of a secret nature. This information is available on a need to know basis. Ssssh, don't tell anyone that I told you.

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    Flashaholic* hotbeam's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Well, there are only a handful of companies capable so I guess if we name them all, someone is bound to be right.

  12. #12

    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by mchlwise
    Yeah, "somebody" working at "wherever" telling "us" about "something" that hasn't been announced yet could quickly find "themselves" looking for another "job" if it gets traced back to "them".

    Unfortunately, this could in fact happen and the person would be looking for a job in an unrelated industry that was hiring "Maintainence engineers"

    If somebody else working at whatever read it and decided "themselves" talked to much he might set the lawyers loose. A good guess by a major buyer could loose the company a lot of money.
    Just ask Adam Osborne.

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    Enlightened EngineeringGuy's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Yeah yeah, I know... as I already said, it is frustrating for me too. The things I do not know... are what the Vf will be, or the package diminsions, or the emmision pattern, or really anything else about them. Just that they are supposed to be competitive.
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    Enlightened Twellmann's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    No, I am not about to jump on the Cree bandwagon, for a couple of reasons: 1) the Cree is a PITA if it is an unmounted LED (I would only order one on a board), and 2) Philips-Lumileds will soon have something to kick Cree's butt. Think thin film technology, think a K2 with 300 lumens at 1A by the end of 2007, lower outputs before then.
    quote from post #29 in this thread http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=138026


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    Flashaholic* Blindasabat's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by fnmag
    An unnamed source has confided in me that an undisclosed company in a not to be mentioned part of the world will soon be releasing an Led of indescribable brightness with extremely high efficiency of a secret nature. This information is available on a need to know basis. Ssssh, don't tell anyone that I told you.
    This MAY or MAY NOT have happened to me.

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    Flashaholic* StefanFS's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Whatever. It's a race for revenue. Just look at the computer/cellphone industries. BlueRay versus HD-DVD and so on, ad infinitum (or ad nauseatum). Technology advances and different companies adapt and evolve. The positive side is that in the end there are several competing products for me to choose from.

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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    The competition seems to get things started! where we waited longer than a year to see a new led-generation, it seems like there is going to be new "generation" or at least a significant step forward every 6 months orso.

    On the other hand, the most efficient light-source there is, right now is a low presure Sodium. I don't remember what they can emit, but it is about 170 lumens per watt? I'll have to see the Led that can beat that! And sodiums didn't make it into a flashlight yet!! luckily. That would be a TINT!
    But 300 lumens at 1.5 watt and 3 volts gets close to 70 lumens per watt. But what is after that? perhaps 100 lumens per watt? dunno if that is physically possible. We are talking solid light sourche here?!
    There are physic laws that limit it at some time!

    But for now? I'm happy with the Cree that I've got

  18. #18

    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlecGold
    But 300 lumens at 1.5 watt and 3 volts gets close to 70 lumens per watt. But what is after that? perhaps 100 lumens per watt? dunno if that is physically possible. We are talking solid light sourche here?!
    There are physic laws that limit it at some time!
    One method that will give a good jump in output is mechanical.
    Light is "emmitted" throughout the solid material and most of it does not reach the surface. Put a bunch of holes in the material and more light comes out.
    This has been demonstrated but the problem of putting millions of nanometer sized holes in the LED has not been achieved.
    Maybe bucky balls made from semiconductors would work.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* Anglepoise's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    One thing we know for sure is that this technology is not standing still and
    Lumileds is not going to sit still and loose customers ( Surefire) without doing something.
    I personally hope that the LuxIII continues to improve as we understand its
    set of features and benefits when modding and designing lights.
    David............................................." Some Homemade Creations"

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    *Flashaholic* IsaacHayes's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    I'm not gonna hold my breath though for a part that will be announced, then like a year after it should be available, it comes out, and doesn't live up to the hype...

    If it comes out performs, then I'll jump on it. Until then I don't pay attention to vapor-ware anymore!
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    Flashaholic* 2xTrinity's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlecGold
    The competition seems to get things started! where we waited longer than a year to see a new led-generation, it seems like there is going to be new "generation" or at least a significant step forward every 6 months orso.

    On the other hand, the most efficient light-source there is, right now is a low presure Sodium. I don't remember what they can emit, but it is about 170 lumens per watt? I'll have to see the Led that can beat that!
    That sounds about right. Lumens per watt is primarily a function of the output color. LPS is very efficienct because its yellow light is very near the peak sensitivity of the human eye (peak is a slightly yellowish green, 555nm). One watt of green light is "worth" 680 lumens, and I believe the efficacy of that yellow color is around 500 lumens per watt. If you're talking about white light however, then a perfect light would be good for only about 350 lumens per watt or less.

    If they made a green LED right at 555nm that was as efficient as the blue LEDs used to power the phosphor in the Cree we could see over 200 lumens per watt.

    And sodiums didn't make it into a flashlight yet!! luckily. That would be a TINT!
    The low pressure variety wouldn't work in a flashlight as they're big tubes, therefore they can't be focused. However, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the guys on this forum tried to cram a 70w high pressure sodium bulb from an outdoor security lamp into a flashlight

    But 300 lumens at 1.5 watt and 3 volts gets close to 70 lumens per watt. But what is after that? perhaps 100 lumens per watt? dunno if that is physically possible. We are talking solid light sourche here?!
    There are physic laws that limit it at some time!
    I believe there's already been announced a prototype 5mm white LEDs that has hit 150 lumens per watt, or around 40% overall efficiency. I wouldn't mind one of those in my coin cell light .
    Last edited by 2xTrinity; 01-13-2007 at 04:39 PM.

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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by AlecGold
    On the other hand, the most efficient light-source there is, right now is a low presure Sodium. I don't remember what they can emit, but it is about 170 lumens per watt? I'll have to see the Led that can beat that!
    In terms of raw efficiency LED already has. The best blue plus phosphor white LED lab samples are 40 to 45% efficient compared to 30 to 35% for LPS. We have blue emitters over 50% efficient. Also, the monochromatic light of LPS is all but useless for anything except road lighting. Even here, white light would be better because it's more scotopically favorable, doesn't cause the tunnel vision effect of LPS and HPS, and is more aesthetically pleasing.

    RGB white LEDs can have theoretical efficiencies as high as 400 lm/W with properly chosen center wavelengths. If 75% efficient emitters are a reality then 300 lm/W white LEDs would be possible. That's nearly double the efficiency of LPS.

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    Flashaholic* KDOG3's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Geez, so after a few months we'll be replacing the Crees' in our new L1s' with these babies. Back and forth, back and forth....
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    OSRAM has a part that is supposed to hit 70lm/W (definitely NOT like the current low efficiency OSTARs) before the end of 2007. I'm also waiting to hear more about new Nichia stuff, and if they came up with a better way to do their phosphors.

    By the time they get into range, I'd expect CREE to bump their efficiencies higher yet (probably twice by then?), and the CREE XR-E, and the Seoul P4, which uses the CREE EZ1000 die inside their LED, should both improve yet again.
    Last edited by NewBie; 01-13-2007 at 05:47 PM.

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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by 2xTrinity
    If you're talking about white light however, then a perfect light would be good for only about 350 lumens per watt or less.
    I read that 242.5 lumens per watt was the maximum for an ideal white light source. Link

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  26. #26
    *Flashaholic* Burgess's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    One thing that i thought of . . . .

    (and i admit, i don't really know much about it)


    When SureFire switches their entire line from Brand A to Brand B,
    that tells me that Brand A isn't even CLOSE to becoming competitive.

    That's my take on this situation. FWIW.

  27. #27
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Burgess
    One thing that i thought of . . . .

    (and i admit, i don't really know much about it)


    When SureFire switches their entire line from Brand A to Brand B,
    that tells me that Brand A isn't even CLOSE to becoming competitive.

    That's my take on this situation. FWIW.
    I think you're right. Phillips would have shown SureFire their prototypes
    and anything else they have on the drawing board if they had anything that
    would have stopped them from switching.

    If Phillips has nothing in the pipeline, they might still spread such rumors
    to try to save as much business as they can until their R&D dept. can come
    up with something.

  28. #28
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    I would be willing to take my U2 apart for a Lux V with 2 times teh light flux. It would not surprise me in the least if Lumileds and luxeon have beem designing higher powered LED's they have been the only high flux leds for some time. I would be very happy if they came out with some new stuff. I would be quite happy to have a brighter U2 when I get it pack (pray that I get teh same head or a better one i won't be happy with a worse head)
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  29. #29
    *Retired* NewBie's Avatar
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    Quote Originally Posted by 65535
    I would be willing to take my U2 apart for a Lux V with 2 times teh light flux. It would not surprise me in the least if Lumileds and luxeon have beem designing higher powered LED's they have been the only high flux leds for some time. I would be very happy if they came out with some new stuff. I would be quite happy to have a brighter U2 when I get it pack (pray that I get teh same head or a better one i won't be happy with a worse head)

    They just tossed their lot into the foray with the recent introduction of the production K2 that came out in the fall time frame, right before the CREE XR-E came out, something like a month later? Then they were followed by the Seoul P4. I'm wondering if OSRAM's 70lm/W part will be next, or if Nichia will introduce something you can actually buy first.

    Of course, we are likely to see the new Edixeon from Edison Opto, which also uses the CREE EZ1000 die like the Seoul P4, hopefully with the new Intermatix phosphors. This one is more likely to hit the streets first.

    Details here:
    http://www.edison-opto.com.tw/pdf/LE...s_Eng_v1.0.pdf

  30. #30
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    Default Re: ... VERY interesting (Competition for CREE/SSC)

    So you're saying Phillips Lumileds is coming out with a new LED to beat the Cree?

    Fat chance Cree will slay them! Let Lumileds come out with something, Cree will just come out with something else to top it again.

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