Economics 101

I_rv_too

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I first posted this in response to a $28 tube of lube ... and figured it would best be discussed in the cafe:

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Anyone who ever took a high school economics course will tell you:

Price is solely the result of what the market will bear and has little, if anything, to do with costs.

I think this is something we all need to keep in mind as our flashlight collections grow.

Just how much is the market (us) willing to pay for a product? ... be it a tube of lube or a flashlight.

If we are willing to pay $300 ... the manufacturers will charge $300.

Simple economics 101.
 

Max

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Originally posted by I_rv_too:
Price is solely the result of what the market will bear and has little, if anything, to do with costs.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Market price is not only affected by what consumers are willing to pay but also by the available supply, and cost has a lot to do with that.

For example, let's say that two manufacturers produce an equivalent product at a cost of $50. Let's say that there are 200 consumers willing to pay $300 each.

Imagine that both manufacturers produce 100 units each and sell them for $300 each. Great! Each manufacturer Makes a profit of $25,000.

Okay, but now imagine that one of the producers decides to cut their price to $280. They lose $20 of profit per light, but now everybody buys from them, so they sell 200 lights and make a profit of $46,000, while the other manufacturer makes nothing.

So, the other manufacturer cuts his price to $260, stealing all the business back and making $42,000 profit, etc. At some point it hits a floor where further cuts would reduce profits to zero, so there is no more incentive to cut.

So, in the real world price has a lot to do with cost. Add to that the fact that most products are not exactly equivalent, and that there might be 100 people willing to pay $300, but 1000 willing to pay $100, and you start to see how dynamic this can get.
 

I_rv_too

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Right, Max ... if a manufacturer is not able to, over time, produce and market an item ... at a PRICE the consumer is willing to pay, the company won't be in business for long.

Nothing happens until an item reaches that "marketplace" sweetspot ... and has little to do with costs.

It's where the rubber meets the road.

And if some other company swoops in, with a similar or better product, at a lower price, or a higher perceived public worth, well, that's free enterprise at work.

It's also one of the reasons I admire all the old-line companies ... not only in the flashlight business, but also any other market segment.

GM, RCA and yes, Maglite have stood the test of time and shown a continuing ability to deliver a product at a price the public is willing to pay.
 

I_rv_too

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But it all hinges on having customers WILLING to pay the price.
 

logical

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Originally posted by I_rv_too:
.... Anyone who ever took a high school economics course will tell you:

Price is solely the result of what the market will bear and has little, if anything, to do with costs.....
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True, but anyone who ever took an economics course beyond a high school level will tell you it's considerably more complicated than that.
 

snake

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"Price is solely the result of what the market will bear "

he he.. the statment itself included cost!!

the word "market" is where transaction take place and transaction included both demand and supply.
well supply include cost!

as in Max's case..cost is $50 , there will be no supply below $50

woo..havn't play with econ quection for many many years...Thanks!
 

Wolfen

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I_rv_too,
This isn't as fun as you virgins and lamp oil thread
smile.gif
(editThough I do see a similarity oil+ lube)

Off topic again, How's our little friend doing?
 

The_LED_Museum

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This is also the way Ebay works. I've been following some auctions of old ghetto blasters, and some of them are selling for a LOT more than they're worth. Same thing for old glass telephone insulators and LED flashlights.
icon15.gif
 

I_rv_too

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Hey, hi Wolfen!

Our little friend is doing well ... particularly since I purchased a couple of the new high power bulbs.

Thanks again ... and thanks for asking!

Stay safe!
 

I_rv_too

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logical>>course beyond a high school level will tell you it's considerably more complicated

What makes you think any of us got beyond high school? We collect flashlights for crying out loud!

Most of us are probably working on our G.E.D's or attending alternative schools!

In terms that are logical, however ... Sure, a firm has employee costs, buildings, real estate, raw material costs, manufacturing costs, inventory, delivery costs, p/e ratios, legal defense costs (ha!) ... how complicated do you want to make it?

But it all boils down to having investors and customers willing to pay the price.

While I'm not willing to admit that I finished high school, I am willing to admit that I look at the stock pages every day.

Those pages are strictly a record of what someone is willing to PAY for one share of stock ... regardless of what it's worth.

The only price that matters is the price that is set by the buyers, not the sellers.
 

I_rv_too

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I sincerely feel sorry for:

1. US taxpayers ... who all too often pay $400 for a hammer. It happens every day and we tax payers have to settle up every April 15th.

2. Anyone whose life actually depends on their flashlight, particularly those in law enforcement and the military.

If my life depended on my flashlight, I would morgage my house, sell my kids, and peddle my wife to buy the biggest, baddest flashlight I could get my hands on.

So why do I feel sorry for military and law enforcement folks?

The flashlight companies ... particularly the tactical weapon light manufacturers ... know that the law enforcement and military market will bear much higher price than the regular market.

And that's why the manufacturers charge so damn much for their products.

Their price, in no uncertain terms, has nothing to do with development or actual material costs.

Nope, these firms charge astronomical prices because they know their customers will pay the price ... because their lives depend on it.

It's all profit driven. And it's all driven on setting the price as high as you can ... provided you have customers willing to pay the price.

No, I don't think "profit" is a dirty word.

But I do think it's a crime that tactical weapon lights cost so damn much money.

If these companies are really, truly dedicated to providing soldiers and officers a high quality light that will protect their lives ... well, they ought to give them the lights free of charge.

But they don't, do they?
 

logical

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Originally posted by I_rv_too:
.

If these companies are really, truly dedicated to providing soldiers and officers a high quality light that will protect their lives ... well, they ought to give them the lights free of charge.

But they don't, do they?
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK, let's get even headier, maybe move on to Capitalism 101.....who knows where this passage comes from and why it applies to a suggestion that flashlight companies should be compelled to give free products to the government?

"If you saw Atlas, the giant who holds the world on his shoulders, if you saw that he stood, blood running down his chest, his knees buckling, his arms trembling but still trying to hold the world aloft with the last of his strength, and the greater the effort the heavier the world bore down upon his shoulders—what would you tell him to do?"

"I…don't know. What…could he do? What would you tell him?"

"To shrug."
 

I_rv_too

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Ayn Rand. Atlas Shrugged.

About John Galt and the possibilities of the captains of industry and business striking.

However, God help us if the nation's LEOs and soldiers go on strike.

And what does Atlast Shrugged have to do with overpriced flashlights?
 

logical

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Atlas Shrugged was at least in part about the idea that companies (Atlas) being the backbone of our society and that if they were required to operate at no profit by being compelled to give things away free(the burden of the world), they would simply say screw it and shut down (shrug). Surefire, not the government is Atlas in my annalogy.

I submit that they are only overpriced if people are unwilling to buy them.
 

Albany Tom

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Well, I've never read Atlas Shrugged. I had no desire after reading The Fountainhead. I did, however, see Officer Bar Brady's review in the Southpark episode "Chicken Lover".

A free market society works best when the consumers are well educated. This would be why the Air Force may buy a $400 hammer, but my next door neighbor probably won't. He's better educated than the Air Force (only partly kidding here), and he's operating in a free market mode.

I know a guy that does project management for our agency, and am pretty sure his type is the reason for the $400 hammer, and the $200 flashlight that isn't waterproof. If my buddy Ed wrote a spec, anyone that knew him wouldn't bid on it, and he'd figure out a way to fairly select the wrong product. He's a nice guy, though, and treats his boss well, so he's been promoted well.
 

Anarchocap

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Originally posted by snake:
as in Max's case..cost is $50 , there will be no supply below $50
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That actually is not true. There are free market occurrences that happen where goods are sold below cost in order to clear out old items from inventory, as "loss leaders" to induce more shopping of higher profit margin goods, or because a secondary accessory to the primary good has a very high profit margin (eg. razors and blades).
Originally posted by I_rv_too:
1. US taxpayers ... who all too often pay $400 for a hammer. It happens every day and we tax payers have to settle up every April 15th.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is frequently the part that is not taught in Econ 101. Specifically the issue of the government monopoly, its use of force on the tax payer, and its effects on the free market.

The ripple effect of the impact of government direct and indirect taxation on business and the consumer is astronomical!
In Where No Libertarian Has Gone Before L. Neil Smith states:
"...just to put it in what may seem like everyday, more practical terms, half of everything we make -- to be precise, 47% or our income -- is taken from us in the form of income taxes, sales taxes, property taxes, and so forth. To add insult to injury, half of what we spend evaporates the same way, not spent on the quantity or quality of the goods and services we think we're paying for, but wasted on corporate taxes, inventory taxes, and that sort of thing.

What's even worse, according to economist Arthur Laffer, the burden of complying with socialist regulations doubles the price of everything again, so that we're spending eight times as much as we should need to, to acquire life's necessities and luxuries. Every day, we run on one eighth of our real capacity, while right-wing and left-wing socialists greedily gobble up the remaining seven eighths of our substance, not to mention our opportunities, our futures, and our children's futures."
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I can say it better than that!

Originally posted by I_rv_too:
The flashlight companies ... particularly the tactical weapon light manufacturers ... know that the law enforcement and military market will bear much higher price than the regular market.

And that's why the manufacturers charge so damn much for their products.

Their price, in no uncertain terms, has nothing to do with development or actual material costs.

Nope, these firms charge astronomical prices because they know their customers will pay the price ... because their lives depend on it.

It's all profit driven. And it's all driven on setting the price as high as you can ... provided you have customers willing to pay the price.
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">These statments suggest a lack of understanding of real free market principals and how the government actually works.

Do you know how much SureFire pays for development? If you have the number, I'd surely like to know. They are not a publically traded compay, hence their information is private.

So first of all, you really can't say if their sales price justifies their development and production costs when you don't know those figures to begin with.

Second of all, LEO and Government agencies get preferential prices as compared to us regular consumers when they have to purchase common products on the open market. Its only when the government uses a closed bid system for uncommon and specialized products do we see higher prices than the free market.

Lastly, for a given common available technology, if one company is charging higher prices than the market is willing to bear two things will happen.
</font><ul type="square">[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">People won't pay the money for that product unless they must have it for specific personal or professional reasons. As in, it won't be a high volume, common use product.</font>[*]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Other companies will see the profit potential of selling a higher volume of the product at a lower price. They will move into the market and do so.</font>[/list]<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But, this assumes a easily reproduced technology, with low investment costs and small barriers to entry. All bets are off when it comes to a specialized technology, high manufacturing costs, or other high barriers in the market.
So, given the market that SureFire is in, which I think is fairly specialized, either there is a technology advantage, a high product manufacturing cost, a relatively small market, all of the above, or some other barrier we are unaware of.

This has to be the case, otherwise there'd be many more companies out there making SureFire type lights for much cheaper prices and everyone would have two or three.
 

logical

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Originally posted by Albany Tom:
Well, I've never read Atlas Shrugged. I had no desire after reading The Fountainhead. I did, however, see Officer Bar Brady's review in the Southpark episode "Chicken Lover".
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We both have an incomplete education then I suppose because I've never watched a South Park episode.

I thought The Fountainhead was a philosophical masterpiece but to each their own......

(Thanks Ted, I think I need a large-print keyboard)
 
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**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
30 odd years ago an A&P supermarket blew into Madison Wisconsin and proceeded to gouge the community with high food prices.
The sucker was bombed into the ground,
without human injury.
There's a people's park there now, coop groceries sprang up all over town, and food has been reasaonably priced ever since.

..and they lived happily ever after..

(logical; "philisophical" ? is that a typo, or did you mean to suggest the cogitations of an ignorant Philistine?
wink.gif
)
 

logical

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That would be a much better story if they had just opened the co-ops and either driven the A & P out of business or forced A & P to lower their prices to remain competitive. Is there some reason the co-ops couldn't have sprung up and flourished without the need to bomb a building?

I could probably open a very profitable little grocery store in my back yard if I just fire-bombed every grocery store within 10 miles.
 
D

**DONOTDELETE**

Guest
good question, it has been so long, I forget some of the circumstances. I assume the A&P did more to attract business than just sit there lookin' pretty. Perhaps one of the factors was A&P's ability to sell at a loss for extended periods, driving other grocers out of busines..the list of underhanded tactics used by the super-rich greedy immoral is endless..
 
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