This site has done something BAD. Now I want more and more lights. I'm looking at the M4-CB but want some opinions before I get it. If you have it, please let me know likes/dislikes. If you use it as a tactical light, especially handheld, I'd like to hear from you. How is the balance, weight and does the larger head affect its usage in positive or negative ways?
M4 for handheld tactical use: Opinions Please
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Can you explain in greater detail what your "tactical" need is? Do you expect to beat someone up with it? I'd suggest not relying on your flashlight to be your weapon.
As a light, the M4 is a great incan, but I wouldn't buy it if I only wanted it as a blunt weapon. I'd rather go for an M3 with an extender for more variable output depending on my needs and I'd bring something else along for protection, such as a pepper spray and an alarm.
The "larger head" is (as far as I know) the same as the turbo head for the M3. It basicly gives you more throw, which I suppose could be good for self defence.
As a light, the M4 is a great incan, but I wouldn't buy it if I only wanted it as a blunt weapon. I'd rather go for an M3 with an extender for more variable output depending on my needs and I'd bring something else along for protection, such as a pepper spray and an alarm.
The "larger head" is (as far as I know) the same as the turbo head for the M3. It basicly gives you more throw, which I suppose could be good for self defence.
Using a flashlight as a blunt force weapon would be close to a last resort effort, although, you use what is readily available when you have to. I'm talking about using it in conjunction with a handheld weapon. The flashlight, ideally, would just be providing illumination in a dark hallway, room, basement, etc., setting. At this point, it would not be weapon mounted and I don't see that happening in the future either, but, who knows, maybe. I want something that is easy to hold and handle and does not block my sight picture. Also something that is blindingly bright and not at all delicate. I just bought a C3 but I really like the idea of 225 lumens for 60 minutes instead of 200 for 20 minutes. Plus I think the M4 is better shock isolated.
DaFABRICATA
Flashlight Enthusiast
I have the M3T and really like it. I also just bought a cell extender so I can have up to 350 lumens with the optional MN61.
I think the M3T is a good choice because it doesn't have to be so long all the time. And with the M3T, you can choose between 125 lumens/225 lumens/ or 350 lumens with cell extender.
I think the M3T is a good choice because it doesn't have to be so long all the time. And with the M3T, you can choose between 125 lumens/225 lumens/ or 350 lumens with cell extender.
The way I see it, the c3 would be supperior since it would be easier to manouver with one hand using the SureFire/Roger's techique. However, I have no personal experience when it comes to using flashlights in combinations with handguns, so I wouldn't really know. I think the M series has a shock isolation that the c3 does not, which makes it better suited for beeing mounted on a gun.
Anyway, what you should question yourself is if you really need to have light for more than 20 minutes. 20 minutes is a long time if you are only using it momentairly. The difference in lumens is small, but then again, the turbo head supposedly increases the blinding effect. The gain in throw wouldn't matter much indors I think.
Whatever you decide to do, I do recommend that you train yourself in using a flashlight / gun combo, if you haven't allready.
Anyway, what you should question yourself is if you really need to have light for more than 20 minutes. 20 minutes is a long time if you are only using it momentairly. The difference in lumens is small, but then again, the turbo head supposedly increases the blinding effect. The gain in throw wouldn't matter much indors I think.
Whatever you decide to do, I do recommend that you train yourself in using a flashlight / gun combo, if you haven't allready.
I done some training but it never hurts to do more, which I think I will this year. Is the shock isolation on the SFs mainly just for weapon recoil or does it also offer more protection in other situations, i.e. impact from dropping?
If you are conducting building (room to room) searches, 20 minutes run time is not as much as many would think.
There is more to the "tactical use of light" than holding a flashlight in one hand and a firearm in the other. It is way more complex than that.
I am a retired U.S. Marshal, a firearms/tactic instructor, and a graduate of the Surefire Instructor Development Course (among much other training received).
I have numerous small 2 cell Surefire lights, and weapon mounted lights. I also have two SF M-3s, and a SF M6. The M3 model with the small head is nice, because it is not that difficult to carry on your person.
During the training with Surefire, we as students used SF Z2 flashlights. Why? Because it was included in the price of the training. What did the instructors use? Turbo heads and the M6. MAJOR difference!
If you are an LEO, get your agency to send you to some training. If not, getting the training formally may be a bit more of a challenge.
There is a saying amongst the tactical types. "One is none - two is one." Stuff is going to fail, batteries die, equipment lost. If you only have one, you basically don't have anything, because when "Murphy" strikes... and at some point "Murphy" will... you are in the dark without a light. One is none - two is one! (You might not have the luxury of time to replace batteries, a second light makes a quick transition when the batteries on your primary fail.)
There is more to the "tactical use of light" than holding a flashlight in one hand and a firearm in the other. It is way more complex than that.
I am a retired U.S. Marshal, a firearms/tactic instructor, and a graduate of the Surefire Instructor Development Course (among much other training received).
I have numerous small 2 cell Surefire lights, and weapon mounted lights. I also have two SF M-3s, and a SF M6. The M3 model with the small head is nice, because it is not that difficult to carry on your person.
During the training with Surefire, we as students used SF Z2 flashlights. Why? Because it was included in the price of the training. What did the instructors use? Turbo heads and the M6. MAJOR difference!
If you are an LEO, get your agency to send you to some training. If not, getting the training formally may be a bit more of a challenge.
There is a saying amongst the tactical types. "One is none - two is one." Stuff is going to fail, batteries die, equipment lost. If you only have one, you basically don't have anything, because when "Murphy" strikes... and at some point "Murphy" will... you are in the dark without a light. One is none - two is one! (You might not have the luxury of time to replace batteries, a second light makes a quick transition when the batteries on your primary fail.)
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I am not sure, but I've heard others here say that it is only there for weapon recoil and doesn't do much to withstand hard impacts of a drop. However, I've dropped other SureFire models and I've never had them break in any way. I suppose the overall quality of SureFire's are just really really good.
My knowledge pretty much ends here, so let's wait now untill some professional like Al chimes in.
My knowledge pretty much ends here, so let's wait now untill some professional like Al chimes in.
Das Ronin, this is actually a back-up lamp in case I can't get to the main one, or, as you note, if the primary one fails. I'm also going to have 1 or 2 others, as further back-ups. I used to be really into training and preparations but kind of fell out of that just due to other responsibilities and hobbies. Now, I'd like to get back in, but in moderation. I understand there is more involved than just flashing a light in someone's face, and that the most important "tool" is the brain, and by extension, past knowledge and training. I just want to optimize my illumination tool. I have no doubt that the C3 is probably one of the best lights for this task, but if the M4 is better, even slightly, than I'm going for that. At this point, I haven't even received the C3 so I could easily sell it (when I get it) and be half way to the M4. In regards to the 20 minutes of run-time, that should be enough for my needs but if given a choice, of course I'll take 60 minutes over 20.
The short run times of the optional lamps are not as popular among some tactical types. I am very partial to the SF M6 with the standard lamp. It is bulky due to the body diameter, but I can manage that better personally than a long battery tube like the M4.
As far as my SF M-3s, one has the optional lamp and the other the standard lamp. That way I can pick which lamp to fit the need, and carry both (backed up by a 2 cell SF). One has a standard bezel and the other the crenellated bezel. I know which is what lamp that way.
As far as the 20 minute run time lamps. In room to room stuff, 20 minutes is not long. And "Murphy" will hit with battery failure at the worst possible time. The more run time per light, the fewer lights I have to carry.
If you only need 20 minutes, go for the M4. If you need that light level and longer run time, an M6 is great. I just personally do not like the length of the M4.
As far as my SF M-3s, one has the optional lamp and the other the standard lamp. That way I can pick which lamp to fit the need, and carry both (backed up by a 2 cell SF). One has a standard bezel and the other the crenellated bezel. I know which is what lamp that way.
As far as the 20 minute run time lamps. In room to room stuff, 20 minutes is not long. And "Murphy" will hit with battery failure at the worst possible time. The more run time per light, the fewer lights I have to carry.
If you only need 20 minutes, go for the M4. If you need that light level and longer run time, an M6 is great. I just personally do not like the length of the M4.
kogatana581
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2006
- Messages
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The balance, with the long battery compartment and turbo head, is poor. The weight, for me, is no issue. I prefer it over the fat M6.
It has been easy to carry it when I really needed to carry it.
It is not easy to use with the Harries technique but not impossible. With the Rogers Grip and Neck Index Technique, it is just plain silly.
I have not had good results with these techniques; much less with the Rogers method.
Try placing the light over the forearm of the shooting hand, resting the turbo head between the knuckles of the middle and ring fingers of the shooting hand. This is much more stable and easier to control, but the risk of the slide of a semi-auto slamming into the hand holding the light is greater but not impossible to avoid. Revolver usage is, obviously preferrable.
My combat revolver choice is a S&W Model 19/66 for the smaller profile and lighter weight. With 125-grain .357 Magnums, sight acquisition follow-up and re-placement of the beam onto the target has been, for me, very consistent. With the heavier bullet weights of 145 and above, only slightly less consistent.
With a 5-inch barrel 1911 pistol, I have not experiencd any events of the slide contacting my hand/arm holding the light while discharging the firearm, but I DO know that it can happen. I just ensure that I hold the M4 in a manner that it does not happen. That is where the training kicks in.
Use this method with caution! DON'T if you have ANY reservations.
It has been easy to carry it when I really needed to carry it.
It is not easy to use with the Harries technique but not impossible. With the Rogers Grip and Neck Index Technique, it is just plain silly.
I have not had good results with these techniques; much less with the Rogers method.
Try placing the light over the forearm of the shooting hand, resting the turbo head between the knuckles of the middle and ring fingers of the shooting hand. This is much more stable and easier to control, but the risk of the slide of a semi-auto slamming into the hand holding the light is greater but not impossible to avoid. Revolver usage is, obviously preferrable.
My combat revolver choice is a S&W Model 19/66 for the smaller profile and lighter weight. With 125-grain .357 Magnums, sight acquisition follow-up and re-placement of the beam onto the target has been, for me, very consistent. With the heavier bullet weights of 145 and above, only slightly less consistent.
With a 5-inch barrel 1911 pistol, I have not experiencd any events of the slide contacting my hand/arm holding the light while discharging the firearm, but I DO know that it can happen. I just ensure that I hold the M4 in a manner that it does not happen. That is where the training kicks in.
Use this method with caution! DON'T if you have ANY reservations.
The Voice of Reason
Newly Enlightened
As I mentioned in a post in a different thread, the beauty of the M3 is that it is so versatile - it can be an M3T with the addition of the Turbo head.
It has the benefit of HOLA and LOLA for standard bezel and Turbo head.
Add an A19 extender and you can have longer runtimes and higher output (hey presto, an M4) - also, it would give a nasty smack if you were ever inclined to have to use it that way...
Or you could add a KL6 LED head with 4 hours of runtime.
It's a damn fine light this one - and built like the proverbial outhouse... still doesn't stop me wanting an M6 though...
It has the benefit of HOLA and LOLA for standard bezel and Turbo head.
Add an A19 extender and you can have longer runtimes and higher output (hey presto, an M4) - also, it would give a nasty smack if you were ever inclined to have to use it that way...
Or you could add a KL6 LED head with 4 hours of runtime.
It's a damn fine light this one - and built like the proverbial outhouse... still doesn't stop me wanting an M6 though...
bwaites
Flashlight Enthusiast
It's interesting, but just about everyone here prefers the M3T over the M4, although many have converted their M3T's to M4's by adding a cell extender.
Personally, I like my M3 alot. I run protected LiIon cells from AW in mine with no problems. I can also run Pila cells, though they require a double tap to light the lamp, so I only use them for times when I will be using the lights for non-critical searches, like looking for lost keys, etc.
I run the regular M3 head with the MN11 high output lamp. The M3T with the MN16 HOLA and running 18650's in a Milkyspit body, and I keep a set of MN15's around to run on my M6 for REALLY extended run times!
The M3 is just a more versatile light than the M4.
Bill
Personally, I like my M3 alot. I run protected LiIon cells from AW in mine with no problems. I can also run Pila cells, though they require a double tap to light the lamp, so I only use them for times when I will be using the lights for non-critical searches, like looking for lost keys, etc.
I run the regular M3 head with the MN11 high output lamp. The M3T with the MN16 HOLA and running 18650's in a Milkyspit body, and I keep a set of MN15's around to run on my M6 for REALLY extended run times!
The M3 is just a more versatile light than the M4.
Bill
BargainMonkey
Newly Enlightened
If you like the C3 you can do a lot with it. You can add an M2 bezel for shock isolation with the standard lamps or use a C-M adapter to run the standard or turbo M3 bezels.
LED61
Flashlight Enthusiast
Don´t discard the M6. Personally I don´t like the M4, too damn long. The M3 with the standard head is beautiful as Bwaites uses it. And I realy like DasRonin advice in the M6 with the standard MN20 for 1 hour. Or you can also go for extended long burn over 2 hours with nice bright white almost regulated output with the MN15. So, it is a really versatile light that M6. the M6 has a nice fit in your hands...it is a beauty just to hold and behold. Get the crenelated bezel one, opticshq just got some new stock of these.
I've been trying to locate an M3 locally just so I can get a feel for it. Haven't had any luck. I'm going to call a couple more places to see if I can find one tomorrow. I'll also check out the M6. I've been busy trying to figure out what I want to sell or trade so I can justify spending $175-$300+ on another light.
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