L0D(-CE) on 10440 Li-Ion - Maybe there should be a big fat WARNING about this?

Like many other CPFers here, I bought some 10440 Li-Ion cells for my L0D. I liked the way it made it brighter and that every levels still worked because the light use PWM for dimming. But now! After some research and measurement, I, and probably many others, think that there should be a WARNING about using 10440 cells in this light. Here are some current measurement I've done on it on every levels:

Primary: 0.42A
Low: 0.18A
High: 1.23A

Li-Ion cells are often rated for a MAX discharge rate of 2C. Most 10440 Li-Ion cells have a capacity of 320 mAh. 2C is then 640 mA. I bought mines from AW and he said that the max discharge rate on those is 600 mA. As you can see, 1.23A is WAY over the 600 mA MAX discharge rate. It's in fact 3.84C. I contacted again about the result of discharging those 10440 at this rate and he replied that they would die fast. Also, there is a comment from Newbie about discharging a Li-Ion cell at a too high rate:

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/posts/1258756&postcount=15

You can also find a discussion/review on the L0D on 10440 I had with another CPFer there:

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=148412&page=1&pp=30

Based on that, I still like the way the Primary level with 10440 cells is the same as High with NiMH or as the L0P and I use often this brightness level. The new High with 10440 should then only be used for brief periods of time (probably < 1 minute or even less). As many noticed, the light becomes hot really fast. It takes 6 secs before I notice a warming and after 10 secs it is hot. At 2 minutes, the light is very uncomfortable to hold in hands.

What do you think of all this guys? I think sellers that advertise this light as being Li-Ion compatible should put a warning about using them in it!

Thanks

[EDIT]
Found on Lighthound website:

http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2501

NOTE: Input voltage is up to 3.6 volts, so the L0D will use the 10440 rechargeable 3.6 volt lithium battery with impressive results!
[/EDIT]

Who is advertising that the L0D CE is li-ion compatible?
No Fenix light is li-ion compatible. As with most lights out there in the same class
you're running it direct drive and there are lots of variables such as the Vf of the LED
and how much the diode in the boost circuit can handle it. Other variables include the
li-ion's specs will also vary - as mentioned by wildchild.

Personally, I have NEVER recommended li-ions. And I always advise that if you have
to use one, always use protected cells. Again, YMMV and most likely you're voiding
warranties if the manufacturer doesn't spec the light to take li-ions.

It is too dangerous to run 1AA or 1AAA lights with Li-ion batteries, especially running for long time.

My rule of thumb is to check the specs to see what is acceptable and measure the cells to be sure they're as advertised, and ask questions until my confusion subsides. If I need to overdrive a light, I must need a brighter light.

The capability of circuit is not enough, I think, one should also concern about the LED's working condition. As far as I know, LED working at higher temp will be dim faster and 1AA sized lights often can't cool the full-driven LED down.

Someone did a test, JETBeam JET-I MK-II would be over 50C after run by 14500 Li-ion battery for about several minutes.

4sevens said:

Who is advertising that the L0D CE is li-ion compatible?

Click to expand...

Lighthound does... See 1st post edit.

I've worried about the possible dangers of running Li-ion in my L0D -CE too, but it's just too bright not too!

O.K. so you're going to void to warranty of the light anyways so here's my thought:

If the cell does vent, that's bad but what's worse is not knowing it and having it blow up in your hand, right? So if you must run your L0D on Li-ion cells then drill a small 3/32" hole in the center of the tail end and plug it with a tiny rubber plug. This way if the Li-ion cell does vent then you have a rocket instead of a bomb!

As far as only getting maybe 50 charges to 80% capacity instead of 300-500 cycles, just buy extra's, they're inexpensive anyways.

Yeah high shouldn't be used anyways other than showing off since it gets hot. Primary and Low with Li-ion should be fun and still with in the specs of the cell, and more useable since the light wont get so hot.

One must be careful especially if its on your keychain and turns on in your pocket, that could be painful!

You shouldn't put your tongue in a light bulb socket, even though it fits.

You've been warned.

There's no warning on my sportbike about revving it to 10,000 rpm and dropping the clutch either -

Is the Flashlight manufacturer liable if they don't list every possible hazard regarding which batteries, power-on time, etc of the flashlight?

You all know that at some point over 60 deg C (140 F) that Lithium Ions can go into thermal runaway (you CAN'T shut them OFF) and Explode or Catch Fire, right?

Personally I would not use 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable 10440 in a Fenix L0D(-CE)
(other than maybe under about a minute at a time - but then that's me - YMMV).

The L0D-CE on 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable 10440 was discussed in the review thread -
Fenix L0D-CE Comparison Review
Posts #14, #27, #29

However the L1D-CE seems to be better behaved on 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable 14500 (AA size) -
please see Post #92 in Fenix L1D-CE Comparison Review

L1D-CE Current draw - 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable 14500 - Open-circuit = 4.06V (capacity = 700mAh)
Turbo = 0.69A
Low = 0.60A
Medium = 0.60A
High = 0.60A

Torchworld
0.8V~3.3V

Fenix Store
0.8V~3.3V

EliteLED
0.8V~3.3V

Lighthound
Wildchild's link is for the L0D. Here is the onr for the L0D CE
http://www.lighthound.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=2588
0.8V-4V
NOTE: Input voltage is up to 4 volts, so the L0D CE will use the 10440 rechargeable 3.6 volt lithium battery with impressive results!

Fenix.com
0.8V~3.7V
Why is the official Fenix #s different from everyone else? I know there is a rush to get the lights out but everybody should be displaying the same specs by now.

LightBright said:

There's no warning on my sportbike about revving it to 10,000 rpm and dropping the clutch either

Click to expand...

I agree.

Also, if the battery explodes/vents/dies it's not their fault for making the light. It's your fault for using batteries that can't handle it. All they say is that it can run on 'x' volts. Where you get those volts from is up to you.
What you should do is to have a go at the manufacturers of the cells for not printing a Max Current Draw on their batteries. eg,

"DANGEROUS IF DRAW EXCEEDS 2AMPS"
or
"MAXIMUM RECOMENDED DRAW 2AMPS"

This thread is not to blame anyone! It was just to educate people about the possible danger based on facts! Also, it's nice to get comments from everyone about this!

WildChild said:

This thread is not to blame anyone! It was just to educate people about the possible danger based on facts! Also, it's nice to get comments from everyone about this!

Click to expand...

Always good to stir up discussion. Particularly when safety is the topic...

UnknownVT said:

Personally I would not use 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable 10440 in a Fenix L0D(-CE)
(other than maybe under about a minute at a time - but then that's me - YMMV).

The L0D-CE on 3.7V Li-Ion rechargeable 10440 was discussed in the review thread -
Fenix L0D-CE Comparison Review
Posts #14, #27, #29

However the L1D-CE seems to be better behaved on 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable 14500 (AA size) -
please see Post #92 in Fenix L1D-CE Comparison Review

L1D-CE Current draw - 3.7V Li-Ion Rechargeable 14500 - Open-circuit = 4.06V (capacity = 700mAh)
Turbo = 0.69A
Low = 0.60A
Medium = 0.60A
High = 0.60A

Click to expand...

I wonder if the large difference in current on 3.7 V LiOn is due to differences in the Vf of the emitters in the samples tested or the Fenix boost circuits.

Mike

Awww, I just ordered 10440 to use with the L0D-CE. What am I going to do with it now? Probably just for the "wow" factor now , because I am not putting it in my jean pocket :laughing:

Does this mean that the P1D CE should not be run with 3.0v rcr123a? Theyre LiIon rechargeable.

....who turned out the lights?

AArcVarc said:

Does this mean that the P1D CE should not be run with 3.0v rcr123a? Theyre LiIon rechargeable.

Click to expand...

Those are OK - their output voltage is limited to 3.0V, hence the name