It seems to me...an open letter to Surefire.

Let me start by saying that I own a couple of Surefire lights. Purchased years ago, when if someone said, "I want the best of the best, rugged, made in USA", Surefire was a good answer.. So I have a few, which have been very reliable, rugged, and no problems. I even put up with CR123 batteries, because that's what Surefires need.

But times change.. there are many more choices out there now. I absolutely can't stand the CR123 battery form factor. So I now look for alternatives. With the Cree, AA - based flashlights, can effectively compete with CR123 lights. I am hoping that Surefire will eventually start looking at AA-based LED lights. I know, it's probably not likely, but heh, a guy can dream...

I don't know how much Surefire even cares about consumer sales, but I do know that if they offered a Kroma MS or a U2 with a Cree I would jump on it. With the current offering, I just can't cough-up $300 for a light that doesn't even match the output of a $50.00 AA-based cree light - I don't care what name is on the light. If Surefire even had consumer sales that they care about, their market is going to decrease. I like buying Surefire, but they have to offer a competitive (performance-wise) product if you are going to charge a premium. I know some would say that that's now what these lights were designed for, but my response is, why not do both?!

PS, I hope the Titan is not what you (Surefire) considers a competitive product. Let's see $500 * 1000 peices = a cool 1/2 million USD. (assuming that they go for retail and not more than retail) - I guess that might be one way to raise a little capital to finance R&D into developing some new Cree-based lights, it just might be a little to late to the table for them though...

Come on Surefire!, belly-up-to-the-bar and show us something you can be proud of (and what we are looking for) - just don't take too long...... In the global economy, the market waits for no one.

I'm sure this statement will fall on deaf ears, but Surefire sells plenty of lights without trying to compete with what the latest Asian flashlights offer for the least money. That's not what they do and that's not even close to what they've ever been about.

If someone wants the latest Asian light with the most output for the least money, then buy an Asian light with the most output for the least money.

I think the biggest issue with Surefire is a bit of a dip in quality control on certain newer lights. I still think they are among the best mission-speficic lights around.

Personally, I think that all Surefire lights are built with a purpose behind them. Surefire's warranty speaks for itself too, no Asian company can compete with this. On the whole subject of them being competitive, they are behind the times a little bit but all their light have a very specific purpose behind them. Personally I don't need a 200 lumen light. I think that my surefires serve their purpose and do it very well.

All these Fenix, Jetbeam and Asian lights are nice, but they are a joke when standing next to my surefires. I'd get the Asian lights if i needed some quick fix for my lumen cravings. But surefire lights are in another league. Beam quality, fit finish warranty...
I'd probably buy a surefire cree and dump my fenix L1D which is really useless to me because the beam is so ringy that is very hard to use indoors and they become worse once you slap in a 3.7v battery you lose all regulation and the rings become worse!! Is this the kind of light you want? fly by night rushed out the market with nice specs and useless beams?
I'm not a surefire fan boy, but so far surefire is the only brand that make lights that i'm proud to own and none chinese has come close.
I showed my surefire L2 and my Fenix L1D to my friend which he doesn't know much about flashlights and guess which one he picked?

You could ask them to create a subsidiary unit with a different brand name that can put out experimental and flashy new products. I'm not familiar with their business enough to say whether or not such a proposal would be viable though.

If i was going into a situation where i knew i would need a light that was not going to fail me and could with stand the elements i would count on surefire. Granted all the other lights i have work well and have good qualities about them but surefire combines all those qualities into one fine piece of machine.

First, let's get off this "Asian vs US of A" train. It so happens that Asian manufacturers are building and shipping competitive products. Mag can do the same if they chose to...

Surefire has cachet so they can charge $100-$300 for their lights. They earned this position in the marketplace and more power to them. But we've got to remember to compare apples to apples.

If Fenix was selling their lights at the same price point as Surefire, I am certain that they can make products that has the same look and feel as the Surefires. Probably better quality, too (judging SF quality from numerous reports of issues with U2, etc).

Someone said that it's a no-brainer to make a $100K car and sell it for $100K. This is so true. If you pay 2x to 6x more in price, it better be better, right? But Fenix lights are not bad at all even compared to Surefires.

We have to applaud Fenix for bringing out lights with specs that, only a couple years ago, was available only from expensive custom builders. For $50 give-or-take, you can buy an AA based light putting out in excess of 100 lumens. Isn't this special? As a flashoholic, isn't this something to be happy about?

Ever shopped for a Rolex wristwatch?

Same thing applies.
COSC certification isn't really worth much when it comes to accuracy, as a $100 Casio (or Swatch, for that matter) beats it hands down.

Owning a Rolex is simply about being willing to pay more for something that is (over-)engineered for what it can do, and for the best possible craftsmanship and attention to detail.

I have owned 8 Surefire lights. I still own 2. I would love for them to put a new Cree L5 on sale tomorrow....but I am beginning to understand that it is much harder for a factory that produces thousands and thousands of flashlights per month to retool than a new factory that is basicly starting with the newer technology.

So for now, small companies like Fenix and Lumapower will have more cree lights which are brighter for less than Surefire's. Thats the neat thing about competition and innovation. But when Surefire does retool and launch their new products, I like many others will stand in line to buy them. Even though I will allready own some of the Chinese cree versions that came out months before hand. I know there will be a pride of ownership that owning a $200.00 light that cannot be had from Fenix or Lumapower.

I do worry about the older bigger companies though. I wish Streamlight would make a Cree tl3 and that Inova would have made the t3-5 with cree leds. But I think they will still do ok. Only time will tell.

Canuckle said:

Ever shopped for a Rolex wristwatch?

Same thing applies.
COSC certification isn't really worth much when it comes to accuracy, as a $100 Casio (or Swatch, for that matter) beats it hands down.

Owning a Rolex is simply about being willing to pay more for something that is (over-)engineered for what it can do, and for the best possible craftsmanship and attention to detail.

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Agree 100%

I am a surefire fan, However, I am old enough to remember when everyone thought that a Honda was a 'cheap rollerskate of a car that you bought when you didn't have the money to buy an American automobile.' Things have changed.

While I am happy to defend Surefire, I also hope that Pila, Fenix, Lumapower, or some other small manufacture(s) keep growing and inproving and soon are also talked about with the same reverance for quality and construction as Surefire. I would love to buy a $150+ Fenix if it was worth the price. So while I continue to pull for Surefire, Streamlight, Inova ect... I look forward to a couple of these little upstarts hopefully getting even bigger and better and eventually becoming a contender for the highest quality, brightest and toughest lights made. Time will tell.

Interesting comparison between Surefire and Rolex. Yes, Rolex has cachet (to the masses?). But quality of craftsmanship? There are many, many more watches in the Rolex price range with better quality and attention to detail. Breitling, Sinn, Ventura, just to name a few. I know, I own all of them.

Rolex spends a LOT of money on marketing. That is how they stay on top. They have not shown much innovation in decades. Tradition and all. But, in terms of wristwatches worn as a piece of jewelry, that's OK.

But Surefire is a technical tool. The situation is very different in terms of need for innovation and attention to quality (as in NO failure out of the box). No?

For the record, I am in no way a Surefire snob. The only Surefire I currently own is a G2 and the only LED Surefires I've ever owned was an L2 and an L4. The L4 is a great light, but mine was way WAY too green and I returned it for a refund (local shop) zero questions asked.

And I own PLENTY of Asian lights. I use them a lot and they have never let me down. Since mine was the first reply, I guess I was the first to mention (in this particular thread) the Surefire vs Asian aspect, but it's true. I mean, the labor cost is there... simple as that. If Surefire had zero R&D and had zero return policy, their lights would still be considerably more than Fenix/Luma etc...

That in no way is a slight against Surefire OR Fenix. It's simply another option. Some folks are willing to pay for that option and can afford it. But for someone to knock the de facto light company because they don't have a light that directly competes with a brand spankin new Asian light is silly at best... No offense to the OP.

Yeah, I'm also not for or against Surefire...


But you know, if I was told that I can buy a "perfectly" machined and assembled L1D-CE with a good-looking LED all centered and nice, I will gladly pay $100. I actually prefer the looks of Fenix lights compared to Surefires... low key and doesn't tear-up my clothes. Well, different strokes...

In any case, as a consumer, expectation is different when one is spending $50 vs multiples of $50. Perhaps because I don't give Surefire the benefit of their brand cachet. It's just a tool to me.

Here we go again!

=)

we also have to remember that Surefire has to worry about or guys whose lives are on the line.I'm pretty sure a great deal of surefire's R&D goes toward weaponlights,and all the tactical goodies.we must remember that Surefire does infact cater to the specific needs of military and law enforcement before us,that's the downright truth about it.They get taken care of first,the KROMA milspecs?they're all in iraq that's why we don't have any here,and for the most part when tactical items are released at shot shows from surefire it's usually less than a month before they are on sale,unlike the handheld lights.

I see how this affects the Cree lights from surefire very easily,the military doesn't use LED's because you can't slap an IR filter on it to use with NVD's,
so why should surefire rush them into production when their biggest customer isn't gonna touch em?

I'm probably a Surefire fan, but that doesn't mean I don't have other ligths. It puzzles me why people contiune to whine about SF's *insert favorite issue here*
Don't like them, don't buy them, pure and simple!
Same thing with watches. I have been into watches for way longer than I have been into flashlights and I have heard people whine about Rolex, Omega, etc, etc.
Again, if you don't like what they put on the market, nobody is forcing you to buy one!

Now..... it's possible to get the latest and greatest Cree equipped blaster from a chinese company (even fairly cheap), while SF hasn't released it's own Cree based lights yet, contiune to use Lux III's and V's, incandescent bulbs at much higher prices. Sound like bad business practice? Not to me!
I assume - which is all I can do - that SF focuses on reliability rather than being able to compete with the latest "extreme output" light.
Some will argue that SF has problems with reliability, but seriously....I would never dream of taking a U2 or a light with a clicky tailcap into combat. Keeping things simple is the key to happiness when the going gets tough.

While I love my HDS B42 XRGT and use every day, every time I think I might need a light in a stressed situation, I reach for my SF L4 or E1L.

cratz2 said:

I'm sure this statement will fall on deaf ears, but Surefire sells plenty of lights without trying to compete with what the latest Asian flashlights offer for the least money. That's not what they do and that's not even close to what they've ever been about.

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I really, really! don't want this to turn into a Asian vs. Surefire debate. What I am really looking for is to have Surefire show a little more innovation than what I have seen from them recently. It's all about competition (regardless of the origin of that competition). If the Shot Show is the normal place to hear about new, planned products from Surefire, then I am extremely disappointed... Really, the Titan is the best they could do?

re: "That's not what they do and that's not even close to what they've ever been about.", Well, I just went to their website and it seems that what they do is make (and I assume want to sell) flashlights. That seems to be what they do. So, if they don't want to sell to consumers then that's ok, they will get their wish continuing on their current path.

Ultimately I want to see some unique, high performance, high reliability offerings that make me feel that I want a Surefire "at any cost". Right now they have the "cost" part down pretty good, now they need to deliver some better performance in the LED-based lights. I don't mind paying for something, but it absolutely has to perform, period.

Just My Opinion.

Additional:

Come on Surefire! - Give me a retrofitted U2 or even better, a Kroma MS that has 135 - 150 lms on high..... A little performance to justify the price..

I actually like the Ford-Surefire analogy. I hadn't thought of it before, and it has a truth to it. Surefire better pay attention.

What is the situation with Ford? In my opinion, they stopped innovating strongly. Take the Ford Taurus, or the Ford 500.

Both excellent cars in their segments, could be market leaders for years. But what does Ford do? Milk them for as long as possible, dump them into rental fleets, and spend AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to improve them.

Compare what - say - Toyota does with the Camry, or Honda with the Accord. Every 2-3 years they incrementally improve them while focusing on good quality and value. Eventually, they overtake the Fords. And then they keep improving more, to the point where they are not even in the same comparative niche any more.

So we can all say that, at some point in time, Ford was being competitive smart in milking their cars and making max profit. But, over time, that strategy backfires and they end up losing money on their sedans altogether. They only make a profit on their trucks.

So - good analogy to Surefire, who focus on the military segment which can pay more for a given quality and performance (just like the Ford trucks), and who milk their ongoing lines for as much as they can (like the Ford sedans), but are under threat long term from Asian products which keep improving. Eventually the Asian products first catch up, then surpass, and eventually will dominate.

Yeap, Surefire needs to ponder this example.

sorry - above post of mine posted to the wrong thread! Please ignore. Hopefully moderators will delete.