Surefire-the Ford of flashlights?

I'm making the comparison between the two companies because both seemed poised to dominate the market several years ago, and now both seem to be circling the drain. Well maybe SF isn't quite yet, but it's definitely been in decline. No further comment needed on Ford.

I just looked at the SHOT show thread for 2007 and checked out SF's offerings. There is nothing interesting really. The Titan seems to offer precious little for it's immense price tag. The Beast looks interesting, but not for $4800. The new L5 is the only thing that seems remotely impressive, but even this is not overwhelming me with interest. I'm more interested in the new version of the Inova T4.

The one SF I was hoping for was an E2D with a LED, preferably the Cree. I gave up on SF a while ago, but told myself I would definitely rejoin the SF club if one of those came out. Un-shockingly, it appears that we won't be seeing an E2D Cree anytime soon, if ever. It appears that SF is more interested in making $500 Titans that put out half the output of an average LED light, or making $4000 plus HID's that almost no one will buy.

All of these problems are in addition to the QC issues that have plagued both companies in recent years. Ford has had more recalls than I can count, and I've seen more QC threads regarding SF in recent years (especially involving the U2) than virtually all newcomers to the industry combined.

What's going on here?

The difference I see is quality. SF's are top of the line and overengineered along the lines of a German car. Not snaptight as most Fords are

Surefire has strong R&D and makes more profit selling to the defense industry,

Appealing to consumer needs isn't as profitable.

What's with all the Surefire bashing today? This is the third thread. Is it marked on the calendar or something?

These threads remind me of computer forums, whenever an Apple was critized all the zealots would come out and defend. Also nice to see that the Surefire defenders all bash on the 'Chinese stuff'. While Surefire themselves could learn a thing or two from some of these MFG's, especially on warranty basis. I know that if there were to be something wromg with my M1, Ricky would have a replacement in the mail before I could have sent out the email. No questions asked, a replacement the same week. Oh well, to each their own... And it's not really bashing either btw.

boosterboy said:

Surefire has strong R&D and makes more profit selling to the defense industry,

Appealing to consumer needs isn't as profitable.

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they honestly and truly don't need us . . .
:lolsign:

Hey, don't *INSULT* SureFire by comparing it to a crappy car company, ford sucks

a more apt analogy would be Ford=Mag Instrument, mediocre crap that the "unenlightened" think is the "best"

MacTech said:

Hey, don't *INSULT* SureFire by comparing it to a crappy car company, ford sucks

a more apt analogy would be Ford=Mag Instrument, mediocre crap that the "unenlightened" think is the "best"

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LMAO!!!!!!


. . .I can't stand mag . . nor ford at that . . :lolsign:

VWTim said:

The difference I see is quality. SF's are top of the line and overengineered along the lines of a German car. Not snaptight as most Fords are

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Engineering is the application of technology. Quality is the predictability of consistent system performance.

German cars, in general, are not the best quality but may have the best driving dynamics in their given segment.

I think that SF has some of the best durability and customer service available.

First, the usual disclaimer: Please be nice in this thread, as it's an interesting concept.

Surefire first started with weapons mounted lasers, and moved into weapon mounted lights. The first handheld SF light was the 6C, which was intro'd a bit earlier than the well known and legendary 6P. As the company evolved, the U.S. became involved in several military conflicts, which incredibly boosted SF's ability to develop and market new products, both to the Military and also to the civilian segment (including Police and civilians, though, handheld SF's are not as used as much as some think in the law enforcement field).

What SF offers is a reliable, high end instrument, backed by good overall support.

There are two other American companies that compete with SF: Streamlight and Inova. Not by a model-by-model comparison, but when comparing the overall handheld line from all three, I believe that they all offer comparable products, but at a varying pricepoint; the end user does pay a premium for the SF name.

The evolution of the handheld flashlight can only go so far: incans to LED to Luxeon, to K2, to Cree, etc. How many models can SF introduce, until redundancy hits?

SF and Streamlight do a good job at marketing lights in various ways in order to promote those lights to unique uses. Inova, on the other hand, has failed miserably in this regard. The Inova line is a complete mess: Old XO, XO, XO2, XO3, new XO2, T4, T4r, T5, new T2, T3, etc etc.

I'd compare SF to a BMW, as you pay a premium for the performance AND the name recognition, but there's always something that can do it equally as well, but for much less.

--dan
(P.S. I don't think I answered the question)

Aaron said:

Well maybe SF isn't quite yet, but it's definitely been in decline. No further comment needed on Ford....What's going on here?

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What's going on here is that you've started a thread that will bring the Surefire Koolaid Drinkers out in force.

You need to believe:

Surefire is perfect and never makes mistakes.

Every Surefire product is a work of art and the best in its class.

Surefire's exorbitant prices are justified, because of something known as Genuine Surefire Quality.

Surefire never has quality issues, ever.

Koolaid Drinkers need to believe all of the above, because it justifies the money they've spent on Surefire products.

I don't have an axe to grind, either for or against Surefire. I don't own any Surefires, but a buddy of mine has had many over the years and I've had plenty of occasions to use their lights.

I remember seeing their lights for the first time over a decade ago at a large gun show. Nice looking, in a tactical way (whatever that means), and a little pricy. Those days, Mag was the light to have for regular guys like me. But in the same context that made Sig-Sauer P225 sexy, the 6P was sexy.

Today, there are so many more choices in flashlights. Because of name value and history, Surefire can ask for, and get, premium prices. That's OK. As Dano said, you pay more for BMWs over and beyond the performance aspect of the cars.

A couple of months ago, based on an excellent write-up by js, I ordered an A2. I'm still waiting for my vendor to provide one to me here in Japan. I wanted a recently manufactured one, and Surefire Japan has not shipped any for a few months.

Now I'm not sure I want one. I'm reading so much about problems with Surefire (not about the A2, though) here at CPF. A long story but this is what I wanted to say:

If I was paying premium for a serious lighting tool, almost mil-spec (?), I expect no failures out of the box. None.

Sure, product failure is a fact of statistics, a fact of life. But not out-of-the-box for a "serious" flashlight.

BTW, is the Titan the first Surefire designed expressively for the casual user market?

I actually like the Ford-Surefire analogy. I hadn't thought of it before, and it has a truth to it. Surefire better pay attention.

What is the situation with Ford? In my opinion, they stopped innovating strongly. Take the Ford Taurus, or the Ford 500.

Both excellent cars in their segments, could be market leaders for years. But what does Ford do? Milk them for as long as possible, dump them into rental fleets, and spend AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE to improve them.

Compare what - say - Toyota does with the Camry, or Honda with the Accord. Every 2-3 years they incrementally improve them while focusing on good quality and value. Eventually, they overtake the Fords. And then they keep improving more, to the point where they are not even in the same comparative niche any more.

So we can all say that, at some point in time, Ford was being competitive smart in milking their cars and making max profit. But, over time, that strategy backfires and they end up losing money on their sedans altogether. They only make a profit on their trucks.

So - good analogy to Surefire, who focus on the military segment which can pay more for a given quality and performance (just like the Ford trucks), and who milk their ongoing lines for as much as they can (like the Ford sedans), but are under threat long term from Asian products which keep improving. Eventually the Asian products first catch up, then surpass, and eventually will dominate.

Yeap, Surefire needs to ponder this example.[sorry for duplicate post, posted originally on the wrong thread! moderators can please delete the other duplicate post]

ringzero said:

What's going on here is that you've started a thread that will bring the Surefire Koolaid Drinkers out in force.

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as well as the Ford haters, every ford product i've had the displeasure of doing time in has been an unmitigated piece of Ebola-ridden monkey excrement, i hate seeing the SureFire name associated with ford

yes, i know other people have had good luck with ford, and i'm happy for them, really, it's just my experiences have been uniformly bad.

dano said:

I'd compare SF to a BMW, as you pay a premium for the performance AND the name recognition, but there's always something that can do it equally as well, but for much less.

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I also think the Ford analogy is also flawed in that Fords are actually usually pretty inexpensive cars and that they don't have the "prestige" of being top dog in their industry.

I think Mercedes Benz is a better company to liken with Surefire. Every thinks they are high end and pretigious, and their price reflects it, even in their low end models. They can make awesome cars when they put their mind to it. Also, they are built like bricks like Surefire, but their cars suffer from reliability woes due to complicated design. Mercedes have designs can be complicated and ground breaking, but sometimes basic things break. Mercedes has some high performance models that are priced over the top, just like Surefire. Like Mercedes, their reputation has taken a hit with a few bad lemons in their range (think U2 and some of their SUVs)

Surefire flashlights are overpriced it's management is bloated just like Fords and it's products are not impressive if you factor in the price in to the equation. I predict a grim future for Surefire if they don't get in touch with the public , get more innovative and adjust it's prices. The only impressive thing about Surefire is it's exaggerated pricing . People don't need anything more than a MagLed.

:touche:

I think there is a subliminal complaint that those complaining about Surefire don't even realize they carry. {Your focus should be on us, the general consumer. It is not, you are missing this market!}

I see members post about they have bought X number of flashlights & accessories and they are dissatisfied with customer service. There was one where from my estimate assuming retail the purchases totaled maybe $1500.00 and came across like they were a big account at Surefire.

Surefire does not base their R&D and product develope on general consumer products. They never really have and most likely never will. Their target market is government. Federal, state and local. BIG accounts. Accounts where orders are in hundreds and more often thousands of units! Millions of dollars!

No, their general consumer line does not meet the consumer market. But how much money are they going to make on a led E2D... and how much are they going to make on military IR systems or weapon lights? Not even a close match!

Consumer units are collateral to government sales. Sales from CPF type users is a small market they can support with cross-over products from the military/police market, and a way to tap civilian sales on "milspec" type products.

No... they will not jump at a CPF level market request. There is no money in it to pay for the R&D and tooling. The comsumer based companies can and will reach for consumer leads. Surefire can't afford to do that. It is not in the best interest of the corporate focus!

It has nothing to do with koolaid drinking. It has to do with a realistic vision of what Surefire really is. CPF type markets are a drop in the bucket compared to government contracts. If every member made a $500.00 purchase from Surefire... it would barely be a blip on their radar.

It has to do with reality... not koolaid.

They are a long way from spinning around the drain. After the major war fronts end... expect to see a bit more on their consumer line. As for now I am betting they are having a major time keeping up with the orders for their target market... the military.

When (if) peace causes that market to fade. Then and only then expect to see more new and exciting consumer products. I'd like a led E2D. But I'd rather see our troops and that market get the products and the R&D focus to get them what they NEED. If for some reason the war(s) became more global... a real "world war", you would see civilian Surefire sales end.

Since there is a need to compare this to vehicles. It is like H2 and H3 drivers complaining they are not getting new model changes and product improvements, when there are not enough HUMMWVs "Hummers" for our troops in battle.

I wish I could find annual earnings and a breakdown between consumer and military sales. That might help explain where CPF and that type of market really sits on the radar!

Well, I like my Surefire, but it's 1.) The "old" style Lux1 L1 and 2.) Modded.

The way I buy things is I tend to purchase something of ridiculously high quality, and expect it to basically do the job more or less forever. That usually comes with a high price tag; if someone's made a business out of selling things that don't break [or have a certain, low failure rate] then they have to realistically assume that they may not have a repeat customer once the first product is out the door. My Surefire sure feels indestructible, and I'll probably go back to them if it ever breaks - no-one else has made a light that's better for me than this little L1.

Now, comparing Surefire and Ford seems a little oversimplified - but that's an argument for another time, I think.

What I'm seeing out of Surefire is that they are a profitable company that may be overextending themselves slightly - doubtless they are a provider or at least contractor to the US Military, which tends to be A Big Customer. Assuming Surefire is contractually obligated to provide X numbers of lights for the DoD (And, let's face it - Luxeon III and Luxeon V lights are certainly more than adequate for combat roles - many, many people on CPF have said this) and if that number is high enough, then Surefire will spend their time building what CPFers might call outdated, overpriced lights, which they will then sell to the government.

From Surefire's perspective it is entirely possible that these "outdated" products are ones that are tested and known quantities. They have the tooling, and they've made them for a long time, in general they know what to expect from a tool that they are selling to people who may need to trust their lives on it. Now, Cree and Seoul Semiconductors both have brighter and better offerings than Luxeons, but in terms of long-term testing there just isn't the kind of data that SF might perhaps want. There's probably no problem with them at all - LEDs tend to be LEDs, after all - but why take the chance if you have an excellent, tested product already?

We are not Surefire's core customer base. Does that mean they don't care about us? Well, certainly not. Obviously we're on the radar...but they don't bend over backwards to the CPF's whim. I don't see the DoD telling Surefire "Hey, start using Cree stuff or we drop your contract." What I do see is a company that is telling the flashaholics that they're listening - hence the Cree-implanted new line of lights - but has other priorities right now.

Surefire was doing fine till Fenix came along...showed us that a lot can be done with common type batts.

Surefire is also just plain slow to bring new products to market. By the time they actualy market thier Cree stuff something else will be outperforming.

They still have the best machining though. Cool bodies. Perhaps one might say sexy...and sex sells.

DasRonin said:

It has nothing to do with koolaid drinking. It has to do with a realistic vision of what Surefire really is...It has to do with reality... not koolaid.

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It has to do with some people who make excuses for Surefire routinely selling certain models of high-priced lights that are not reliable.

If models with identical quality issues were sold by Fenix, Lumapower, Huntlight, Streamlight, Pelican, etc. there would be no end of critical comments.