Uninformed pricing in BST forums...aka overcharging

I was about to post to a thread when iy got closed...rules breaking. Hopefully mine does not break any rules or I may be Unforgiven

I've posted my information because I did not want to waste a beautifully typed piece of art by myself

Someone broke the rules by trashing someones pricing by posting links, I would not do the same. Only because I do not want to offend anyone intentionally.

Art Vandelay said:

I think the rules are clear.

Candle Power Forums B/S/T Lights Forum Policy:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/announcement.php?f=66

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+1 I agree.

People do not research before buying...I am guilty of the same sometimes.

As an example of what you call over charging...(I would call it uninformed pricing)

I've seen some Surefire KTx turbo heads on sale in BST for $80 or so, used with no bulbs...when if you go to opticshq and do the membership thing and the additional cpf %5 discount you could get a new one shipped for free, with bulbs from a reputable dealer for just a few dollars more. One of them was sold for that price in BST too...I scratch my head at this, but I'm sure that others do the same at times when I buy stuff at what they feel is overpriced.

To answer the original posters question...what do you do when you see something with what I/you would consider to an uninformed price? Well there are a few paths to choose from
1) Leave it alone and caveat emptor (hope that's right...)
2) Send polite email to the seller and kindly let them know that product X is available elsewhere at a substantial savings over their own
3) Take it upon yourself to email prospective buyers about the other product, this however can take a lot of time and well I've done it once or twice but only because I saw an opportunity to do so and thought I'd help out a buyer, but I would also then send an email to the seller and continue with option 2.
4) break some rules. I'd strongly advise against this.

#1, let the seller establish the pricing.

Make them aware of possible mistakes in their post (typos), better possible ways to collect money, etc.

I know personally I prefer not to get PM's with comments about my pricing. Everybody has different overhead.

However, I don't mind getting PM if I made a mistake, or if another more experienced seller knows a better method for collecting money (i.e. if I didn't know I can collect money without a fee from Paypal if paid from available funds)

I personally make about $0-$20 per modded flashlight, and any extra money goes toward more supplies or equipment... or to cover flashlights that I destroy trying to get them open (and then I can't sell them).

Fortunately, nobody has complained about my pricing. If I got enough annoying PM's about my prices, I would probably stop selling flashlights, and avoid the hassle.

Overall, people are really good about respecting my sales thread. The community is very polite overall.

I most likely wouldn't say anything at all to the seller to in the thread. If the buyer is willing to jump at a high price item without searching the market than they obviously could care less about their money anyway.


It does kind of bother me though when I see HDS U60's going for WAY WAY too much money!!! They should be selling for around $100 or less now when you consider they have been completely outclassed in performance and sold brand new for $125 months ago.
You also see Surefire lights that are used going for more money than the same exact model brand new at Opticshq. Maybe the seller doesn't know, but most likely they do know and want to turn a profit.

Either way I would stay out of it or you will risk being banned.

I'm confused, reading this thread it sounds like making a profit on a sale is a bad thing?

Since when? Buying/Selling is all about someone making some money, or else there would be no point in doing so!

B/S/T has no rules about making a profit, only about trashing a sales thread.

If someone asks more than the going rate, they probably ARE trying to make a profit.

If demand is greater than supply, the item may sell at a premium. If not, it won't. It's pretty simple!

List price only applies IF there are lots of items for sale. If supply is limited, people may be be willing to pay A LOT more than list.

FiveMega made some large Mag heads, I've seen those heads, which are very well made, sell for 3 or more times what they originally sold for. That's not overcharging, that's supply and demand!!

Bill

People are allowed to charge anything they want to make a profit. People also have the choice to buy it or not buy it.

There are people who will go to Surefires site & pay the full retail price when they can go to another place & get it for cheap.

I just leave it alone & take care of myself. The fact of the matter is, people should be doing some research before they go to spending. If they don't, thats there fault.

here's a few of pics of a fraction my parts stash... purchased over hundreds of transactions. don't think I'm the only one that's got a large parts stash.

it's just about impossible to keep track of what I paid and what's current going price at all the different sites.

posted is what I think is a fair price. If I made a mistake, a simple PM with a link will fix the situation in a hurry.

I consider someone sending me a PM with price corrections. as doing me a favor.

just like when I send someone a PM with current new prices. I'm returning the favor for someone else.

no one makes much $$$ selling parts. if you factor in all the handling. ya lost $$$. that's why the shoppe is such a valuable resource.

bwaites said:

I'm confused, reading this thread it sounds like making a profit on a sale is a bad thing?

Since when? Buying/Selling is all about someone making some money, or else there would be no point in doing so!

B/S/T has no rules about making a profit, only about trashing a sales thread.

If someone asks more than the going rate, they probably ARE trying to make a profit.

If demand is greater than supply, the item may sell at a premium. If not, it won't. It's pretty simple!

List price only applies IF there are lots of items for sale. If supply is limited, people may be be willing to pay A LOT more than list.

FiveMega made some large Mag heads, I've seen those heads, which are very well made, sell for 3 or more times what they originally sold for. That's not overcharging, that's supply and demand!!

Bill

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I'm not trying to say making a profit is a bad thing...

I do not agree that buying/selling is (always) about someone making money. Some times you loose money, the light is outdated/old/unwanted etc, or you broke it possibly, lol. There is a point to buying/selling besides making money, getting rid of what you don't want and trying to recoup the cost of it as much as possible, if you end up in the black : great, if you end up in the red : oh well, learn and move on (I am strictly talking about money here, there is the enjoyment factor. If I lose some money on a light but I enjoyed it then maybe I've gained something else from it).

Everything else you say I agree with from B/S/T has no rules and down...

The seller is master of his offer. Seller is entitled to ask whatever he so chooses. As stated in the Rules, If you simply can't stand the fact the the price is not acceptable to you, shoot off a PM. Under no circumstances should anybody jump into a sales thread and pontificate about the engorged price. Bad form and against the rules.

Ok, maybe my point is this...

CPF is promoted as some to be a community where we all group hug and stuff like that, but how far do we take that? I mean if we are here to help each other and provide a place for improvement of knowledge about a particular subject, then does that not extend to B/S/T also? I'm just asking a question, not promoting one way or the other.

Where do we draw the line in looking out for each other?

I assume I missed the thread you are specifically speaking of, but I make it a rule to NEVER stomp on someone's FS thread. I may occasionally be guilty of taking one slightly off topic, but I've never posted alternate links or anything like that.

For one thing, maybe it's small change in the grand scheme, but I'd imagine most of the older timers have made [i/percentage[/i] significant profit selling ARC AAAs or Infinity Ultras and/or Ultra Gs. I know I've made 400% profit on some Ultras I bought on closeout. I don't feel guilty and they all sold.

Prices change. Demand increases, supply decreases. Mods are built. The people with the desirable stuff make money. That's how it's supposed to be or else we need to raise a red flag in the front yard.

cy said:

posted is what I think is a fair price. If I made a mistake, a simple PM with a link will fix the situation in a hurry.

I consider someone sending me a PM with price corrections. as doing me a favor.

just like when I send someone a PM with current new prices. I'm returning the favor for someone else.

no one makes much $$$ selling parts. if you factor in all the handling. ya lost $$$. that's why the shoppe is such a valuable resource.

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+1 - also: vote with your wallet!

Ctechlite,

I think I understand your point, heaven knows I've sold lights, lots of them at cost or even an overall loss. (The USL project springs to mind, and I'm still in that one!).

But it is about money to some extent, even if you don't make a profit over what you paid. If that wasn't the case, we would all just give away the lights we seldom use, (and unless you are like js, who is a true purist and only keeps the lights he uses regularly, we all have lots of those!).

I live in a relatively caring community, but even here on CPF, like in my hometown, people must make some money to keep the fires burning.

My wife thinks lights are a money pit, I think I'm about even, minus my current keeper lights, but overall I do it for the fun and because I enjoy the community. (For the most part anyway, some recent threads have made me back off quite a bit). Sometimes I make money when I sell, only to then sell another light that is a loss.

So sometimes I ask a little more than I have into the light, realizing that I'll probably take a hit next go around!

Bill

if some of you guys don't like the pricing in BST, then you guys would hate hobbies like stamp collecting, coin collecting, etc, any place where thing can appreciate in value.

heck, why can't we buy a mint condition 69 Camaro Z28 with a small block V8 for around 4000 dollars, after all the newer Camaros were faster, had better handling and more technology, so there is no reason to pay a cent over the original retail of the 69 model, no?

I have always thought that the dichotomy of "community" and B/S/T was very strange. I try to equate it this way:
If I was shopping for a flashlight with a bunch of knowlegeable friends, and saw a light that was overpriced, I'm 100% positive that they would tell me.
Here on CPF, where we are supposed to be a "community," these same friends who would bend over backwards to help you in just about anything you could ask for, now cannot help you when it comes time to spend your money. I know my real-life friends would not stand for that. They wouldn't consider themselves my friends with that kind of behavior.

I look upon CPF as a place to learn things. Modders helping other modders, even if they might create a competing light. (Surely that impacts the pocketbook, but no law there!) If we adopt the caveat emptor rule, we might as well extend it to modding also. Why help someone learn something, why not let them learn it themselves? To me, caveat emptor runs contrary to community.
(Hey, I believe in laisse faire capitalism as much as the next guy, but I think part of caveat emptor is people watching out for each other. Because I believe that no one can be an expert at everything. But, if we help each other, we can get close)

Thanks for the input so far folks. It's the "happy medium" I seek, and sometimes it's hard to be in that spot because you are not sure where it is.

Bwaites and J_Oei, you say some very valid things and I am agreeing with you 100%

Don't forget about the competition. The friendly person trashing a sales thread may not have your best interest at heart. Who's to say that it's not really the competition? And if a seller believes his competition is using shills, won't he be tempted to do the same.

I think loyalty is owed to both buyers and sellers in the B/S/T. At some point any of us may want to buy, sell, or trade an item here.

J_Oei said:

I have always thought that the dichotomy of "community" and B/S/T was very strange. I try to equate it this way:
If I was shopping for a flashlight with a bunch of knowlegeable friends, and saw a light that was overpriced, I'm 100% positive that they would tell me.
Here on CPF, where we are supposed to be a "community," these same friends who would bend over backwards to help you in just about anything you could ask for, now cannot help you when it comes time to spend your money. I know my real-life friends would not stand for that. They wouldn't consider themselves my friends with that kind of behavior...........

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I think your analogy fails in one aspect. Because of the "community aspect" you mention, it's like both the buyer and seller being your friends. If you publicly warn your "buyer friend" that the "seller friend" is charging too much, you are guaranteed to lose your "seller friend" even if he didn't realize his prices were out of line. That's why I think the rules limit the public trashing of the thread but not the private warning to either the buyer or the seller. That way you can still try to correct what you feel is an injustice without publicly suggesting the buyer doesn't know what he's doing or that the seller is doing something wrong.

Very well expressed, Don.

DonShock said:

I think your analogy fails in one aspect. Because of the "community aspect" you mention, it's like both the buyer and seller being your friends. If you publicly warn your "buyer friend" that the "seller friend" is charging too much, you are guaranteed to lose your "seller friend" even if he didn't realize his prices were out of line. That's why I think the rules limit the public trashing of the thread but not the private warning to either the buyer or the seller. That way you can still try to correct what you feel is an injustice without publicly suggesting the buyer doesn't know what he's doing or that the seller is doing something wrong.

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I guess it is hard to decide how commerce on an on-line community is supposed to work. In real life, if one of my friends wanted to buy something from me, chances are he would get a fantastic price on it (and it might even be zero, depending on the item!).
I realize that PM'ing the seller can work, but in most sell threads, the the item is sold to the first "I'll take it" post. So, the buyer has already committed to the transaction and cannot be warned. (Unless we want to start spamming the entire community, which I surely don't want.)
I guess what I am hoping for is a happy medium. Sort of like a gentle reminder about how a product might be overpriced. Some sort of guideline, like if the asking price is 20% over what can be purchased elsewhere. So, not a trash post, but more like an FYI post.

For example, when someone tried to sell an MR-X, the old timers all knew what that was, and how rare they are, but a lot of the newer people didn't know what it is. So, links were posted to help them learn the history of the item. That is helpful information. Why couldn't they also post links on what the light sold for in the past? That way, a buyer is informed as to value. If he sees that the light has been rising in value, he can make a judgement if the current price is out of line or not.

I think as long as the post is not "trashy," it would fit in CPF people helping others learn.

(I don't envy the moderators having to enforce it at the beginning, but I think people will eventually learn)



I see how PM'ing the seller works

i too find this place to be more of a community than most other places, which is a testamant to how well the rules work in preserving that community. i may not agree with all of them, but they work, and because i enjoy being here and like things as they are (for the most part), i abide by them or provide constructive criticism as i can.

not to get too sidetracked, most of the for sale posts here, are honest posts, of that community-like nature. no one is out to make a dishonest killing. sometimes we would like a bit of profit, sometimes more, sometimes less, for the rare or desireable lights (who wouldn't?), and that's merely letting supply and demand take its natural course.

my take is that if:

1. a honest poster has placed their price too high, then folks will let them know, and should do so discreetly through PMs.
2. a dishonest poster will usually get found out sooner or later, but if someone is really foolish enough to rush headlong into something without doing the tinest iota of research on an item to the extent of not even knowing the basic price (highly unlikely), then i do have pity, and even some sympathy, but sometimes we learn best through experience.

In some of my sales threads, i have put up lights which i am very reluctant to sell. these are valuable to me, and i price them exorbitantly. i also state that outright in my post, that i don't want to sell it, but if someone wants to buy it at that (high) price, then i will sell it. i think that's honest enough and people accept it. for the record none of them have sold, so i suppose my strategy works

but the issue which brought all this up, is that a honest post was crapped upon, which is certainly very bad form. it wasn't even that the light was overpriced. it was a LNIB item priced slightly below the current retail price. and if an item is LNIB, i sure as heck expect it to sell for near what i bought it for.

i'm sorry if i've rambled slightly OT in some parts, but we are indeed a community, and a good community at that. i truly believe if a honest post is overpriced, the best way to let them know is through a discreet PM. but at the same time, i also believe that any buyer must have to have done the basic homework on the light they are about to purchase. no one just jumps blindly into a purchase, not even those with money to burn.