which lights use high drive current? (i.e.1000ma or more)

moon lander

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I know the U2-Style 3W Cree from Dealextreme outputs 1200ma on high mode. some lights use direct drive and can get even higher currents than this with the right kind of batteries.

Anyone know of other lights with regulation that have a high drive current? what about direct drive lights?

i believe a Cree X-RE will output around 200 lumens at 1200ma. alot of lights use 750ma as the high mode. Given the same emitter, wont the higher drive current always be brightest? of course runtime suffers but bright is good.

thanks in advance to anyone who has information or thoughts about this.
 

cratz2

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I don;t have one of those lights, but wouldn't mind picking one up just to play with. I do wonder if those current levels are the battery pull vs the current supplied to the star. Also, I like that DealExtreme gives a lot of information on lights, but it repeatedly calls it 1200 mAh and 350 mAh. Those are storage capacities, not current pulls. If a LED pulls 1200 mA and runs on a 2400 mAh cell, it will provide about 2 hours runtime.

Saying that it pulls 1200 mAh is like saying your car cruises and consumes gas at 70 MPH. They are different units that just happen to share two words/letters.
 

moon lander

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cratz2 said:
I do wonder if those current levels are the battery pull vs the current supplied to the star.

must be im missing something about current draw... can you explain this? the Cree P4 is capable of being driven up to around 1250ma correct? if the battery outputs 1250ma, is the emitter supplied the same current? sorry if this is a stupid question.

i agree DX needs to fix that mah thing, but im pretty sure from other threads that it really does drive at 1200ma. i also wonder if that current could damage the emitter, tho you would think the light would have proper heatsinking to avoid that. i have a big cpu heatsink with a Cree P4 star attached (including thermal grease), draws 1amp from 3AA nimh batteries, and gets so hot i worry and turn it off after 2 minutes. when i add a .5 ohm resistor, the current drops to 670 and the heat is perfectly fine (warms up the heatsink but the emitter isnt scalding).
 

cratz2

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moon lander said:
must be im missing something about current draw... can you explain this? the Cree P4 is capable of being driven up to around 1250ma correct? if the battery outputs 1250ma, is the emitter supplied the same current? sorry if this is a stupid question.

i agree DX needs to fix that mah thing, but im pretty sure from other threads that it really does drive at 1200ma. i also wonder if that current could damage the emitter, tho you would think the light would have proper heatsinking to avoid that. i have a big cpu heatsink with a Cree P4 star attached (including thermal grease), draws 1amp from 3AA nimh batteries, and gets so hot i worry and turn it off after 2 minutes. when i add a .5 ohm resistor, the current drops to 670 and the heat is perfectly fine (warms up the heatsink but the emitter isnt scalding).

See... now they have you confused as well.

An LED pulls a certain current... this is measured in milli Amps or mA. Or you could say that or you could say, a regulator pulls a certain amount of mA from the cell and supplies a lesser amount of mA to an LED.

A battery has a given rated storage capacity, given in the unit of mAh.

A battery does not 'give out' 1250 mA. The LED might pull 1250 mA from the battery, but those phrases are not interchangable. The battery 'has' 2400mAh and the LED (or regulator) 'pulls' 1250mA.

The issue I was speaking of was in a light with a booster or regulator, that booster or regulator will 'pull' a certain amount of mA from the given cell(s) and will supply, by definition, LESS mA to the LED. A good board may be 80% effecient. Higher effecienty is better, but there are no 100% effecient boards. If a board pulls 1000mA from the cells and provides 800mA to the LED, then it is 80% effecient.

If the light is direct drive, these numbers will be VERY similar. If it is boosted or regulated, the numbers will be quite a bit different.

The descrpition on the website says the 'power output' is 1200 and 350. If there is a booster or a regulator, then we do not know 100% from the website if the booster pulls 1200mA from the cell or if it supplies 1200 to the LED.

As I said, I don't have one of these lights and as such, have obviously never done any sort of measurements on one. As popular of a light as it is, surely someone has tested one and should be able to give you more first hand experience on it. Either way, it looks like a very decent value. But if it pulls 1200 mA from the cell and the LED sees say, 950 mA, that should still be bright, but certainly not as bright as if the LED was seeing the full 12000mA.
 

moon lander

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cratz2 said:
See... now they have you confused as well.

An LED pulls a certain current... this is measured in milli Amps or mA. Or you could say that or you could say, a regulator pulls a certain amount of mA from the cell and supplies a lesser amount of mA to an LED.

The issue I was speaking of was in a light with a booster or regulator, that booster or regulator will 'pull' a certain amount of mA from the given cell(s) and will supply, by definition, LESS mA to the LED. A good board may be 80% effecient. Higher effecienty is better, but there are no 100% effecient boards. If a board pulls 1000mA from the cells and provides 800mA to the LED, then it is 80% effecient.

so where does the excess energy go? is it converted to heat by the board? example: a light that provides constant brightness thru constant current regualtion. its batteries supply more current than the led needs, and the reg board gets rid of the excess current above a threshold (the leds drive current) by converting it to heat. that way as the current supplied by the cells tapers off, the board can convert less surplus energy to heat, and output the same. if this is true, it seems like reg boards waste some energy. if im way off on this, feel free to ignore me, youve already given me alot of free info! thanks again!
 

cratz2

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moon lander said:
so where does the excess energy go? is it converted to heat by the board? example: a light that provides constant brightness thru constant current regualtion. its batteries supply more current than the led needs, and the reg board gets rid of the excess current above a threshold (the leds drive current) by converting it to heat. that way as the current supplied by the cells tapers off, the board can convert less surplus energy to heat, and output the same. if this is true, it seems like reg boards waste some energy. if im way off on this, feel free to ignore me, youve already given me alot of free info! thanks again!

Well, I don't know about percentages, but some of it is actually used to power the componets on the board. But regulators can get warm, so some is lost that way.

I'm just grasping at straws here though... You might try PMing Goldserve or Georges80. They know WAY more about this stuff than I do. Of course, pretty much anyone knows way more about it than I do, but they really the go to guys.
 

MattK

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cratz2 - That's about 1 hours worth of work from being an excellent FAQ. If you get motivated I think it would be a great service to the community to extend that a bit and turn it into a basic FAQ; the issues you clarified so well are often misunderstood.

:goodjob:
 

ICUDoc

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"See... now they have you confused as well."
Yes you are right I think.

"The issue I was speaking of was in a light with a booster or regulator, that booster or regulator will 'pull' a certain amount of mA from the given cell(s) and will supply, by definition, LESS mA to the LED. A good board may be 80% effecient. Higher effecienty is better, but there are no 100% effecient boards. If a board pulls 1000mA from the cells and provides 800mA to the LED, then it is 80% effecient.."

NO I don't think so. You are confusing power with current. If a regulated circuit is supplying 1000mA to an LED with a Vf of 3.7 volts, that is 3.7 Watts (assuming DC drive only) of power, as P=IV (power=amps times volts). If the regulator is 80% efficient then it will draw 3.7/0.8 = 4.625watts of power from the battery, and this also will be equal to volts times amps, so a 6 volt battery will be supplying 770mA of current (ie 4.625/6). A nine volt battery will be supplying 514mA of current (ie 4.625/9). If the regulator has a stepup function the same pattern of calculations is followed, however the current drain from the battery will now be higher. eg a 3volt battery will source 1540mA!

"If the light is direct drive, these numbers will be VERY similar. If it is boosted or regulated, the numbers will be quite a bit different.."

NO I don't think so. In direct drive the current flow through every circuit element will be identical, not VERY similar.

Power is measured in watts. To calculate battery power output you need to know current flow from the battery and multiply by battery voltage. To know LED power input, measure current into the emitter (or out of...) and multiply by LED voltage drop measured across the LED terminals while it is turned on. To know LED light power output you need an integrating sphere, a spectroscope and some maths (I made that last bit about LED light power output up!).
 
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2xTrinity

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The issue I was speaking of was in a light with a booster or regulator, that booster or regulator will 'pull' a certain amount of mA from the given cell(s) and will supply, by definition, LESS mA to the LED. A good board may be 80% effecient. Higher effecienty is better, but there are no 100% effecient boards. If a board pulls 1000mA from the cells and provides 800mA to the LED, then it is 80% effecient.
This is true in a boost circuit (voltage step-up) that the mA delivered to the LED will be lower than the mA from the battery. An easy example of this is a battery running from a AA cell. One one of my lights, a AA NiMH cell delivers around 1A at 1V (1 watt of power). This is then run through a boost circuit that is around 80% efficient, which delivers 240 mA to the LED at 3.3 volts, or a total of (.24)(3.3) = 0.8 watts. Note that as a battery gets used up, its internal resistance goes up as well -- this causes the battery voltage to "sag". In order to make up for this, the boost converter must draw even more current from the battery (since its useful voltage goes down) to be able to supply the same, constant 240mA to the LED. (It may be better to think of this as a constant power driver instead of constant current -- both are accurate but it can be confusing if you don't know which current we're talking about -- the idea is that the power delivered to the LED will be consistent)

The current though the LED in the boost circuit is definitely lower than the current from the battery, because when the voltage is boosted, the current must go down. The opposite can be true though -- if you have a light running two lithium batteries at a total of 8 volts hot off the charger, and you pull 500mA from the cells, that's 4 watts in. Run that through an 80% efficient buck converter and you have 865 mA (higher current than 500mA) going through the LED at 3.7 volts. Again, as the cells get used up, and their voltage drops from 8 volts to more like 7 volts, the current that the driver pulls from them will have to be increased.

so where does the excess energy go? is it converted to heat by the board? example: a light that provides constant brightness thru constant current regualtion. its batteries supply more current than the led needs, and the reg board gets rid of the excess current above a threshold (the leds drive current) by converting it to heat. that way as the current supplied by the cells tapers off, the board can convert less surplus energy to heat, and output the same. if this is true, it seems like reg boards waste some energy. if im way off on this, feel free to ignore me, youve already given me alot of free info! thanks again!
The way the convertor works is actually somewaht the opposite of what you think. It will draw less current at first when the battery is fresh, then this increases as the battery gets drained -- this is the opposite of a direct drive light where the only thing limiting the current is the resistance of the circuit. In the case of the converter, the circuit is actually switched off and on using transistors that "sense" the current going to the LED -- as more energy is needed, the duty cycle of the switching is increased. This choppy current is then transformed to a different voltage using inductors, and "smoothed out" using capacitors (so it doesn't deliver pulses to the LED).

The process is lossy -- generally moreso the further apart the input voltage is from the ouptut voltage. Typical converters are around 80-85% efficient.

In the case of running a battery directly off of an 18650 lithium though (around 4 volts) very little voltage needs to be dropped in a resistor to bring it down to the ~3.7 that the LED needs. A one-cell Lithium direct drive setup can actually be more efficient than a regulator since the voltage from the battery is such a good match to the LED forward voltage. You won't get perfectly consistent brightness though, but since LiIon has fairly low internal resistance, brightness will only decrease gradually (instead of a huge drop in the the first few minutes you'd get trying to direct drive off of Alkalines)

If you hook up a AA directly an LED though, the voltage is too low, so nothing happens. Hook up two Lithium batteries to your LED, and you either: A) fry the LED immediately, or B) have to waste more than half the total energy in a resistor to drop the battery voltage from 8volts to 3.5 volts. Converters are a must if you are using batteries that aren't a close match to the LED voltage. In the case of one cell lithium lights though, converters will give you more consistent output in exchange for a little bit shorter runtime (generally more useful anyway).
 
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Christexan

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To further complicate the answer above and answer a couple of other items at a fundamental level...
As mentioned the current in a circuit is shared by all devices in series connections (and divided amongst parallel ones), however a power source (battery in this case) can supply a variable current, depending on the load's "draw" from it. So the same battery can supply 1mA, or 1A, or anything in between (within it's fundamental range).
However, a circuit must always drop the voltage differential from the power source (not a variable).... so if a battery is a 7.2V battery, 7.2V of voltage times XXXmA of current is going to be dropped somewhere in the circuit. This gives you your power consumption in watts (W=VA or P=EI is technically the formula, but I'll use the W=VA).
How does this apply to the boost circuit, well, first, the boost circuit needs some voltage and current simply to operate, usually the "chip" involved has several transistors, each drops 0.6V individually (depending on the circuit, some power others, won't go into that in detail). Some part of the regulator is going to have to "see" the current output, so if the output is a 1A output, then at least one transistor or a combination of them is seeing 0.6V*1A, or 0.6 watts. So that is already lost as a given to start with (and quite a bit more). Other losses in the circuits will add up to the efficiency, say 85%. Of that, most is heat, but it's not "intentionally" lost here (unlike a linear regulator), it's just a function of operation.
Now the boost circuit is intended obviously to boost something, current, voltage, whatever... but you can't violate the fundamental law of V=IR in the circuit. Now let's say you have 3*3.3V LEDs running at the 1A desired rate. Obviously we'd need more voltage than the 7.2V source can provide to reach the 9.9V required for the LEDs to operate at 1A, but the battery cannot provide more than that, so instead what happens is the regulator stores available voltage in 2 source circuits (using inductors and capacitors) and as the available voltage (stored as potential energy) in one falls, the other is used and the first is recharged. Obviously to keep 2 sources charging and discharging to provide a greater voltage requires more total energy, and since you can't change the battery voltage, the current requirement is higher to makeup the difference (R doesn't change significantly in this example, although both inductors and capacitors do impose some resistance losses in operation).
That's probably clear as mud and some technical minor inaccuracies, but look at it another way, if the regulator is 100% efficient, then V=IR still applies. You are looking at 9.9V at 1A, at whatever resistance (R). Keeping R constant, if your source is 7.2V, then you have 9.9=1R and 7.2=XR.... 9.9/7.2=1.375 increase in voltage, to achieve that, you'll have to draw (in a 100% efficient battery at different rates), 1.375 more current, or in this case 1.375 amps (to get 1 amp output at 9.9V). If the convertor is 90% efficient, and the battery loses 5% efficiency due to increased draw (or is 95% of the 1A rating), then you get 1.375/(.9*.95) = 1.6amps of draw on the batteries.
Now of course that looks like a "constant voltage" scenario in my write-up, but in this case for simplicity I focused on the voltage numbers, as the LEDs require 9.9V to operate at 1A (so to supply a constant 1A current to the LED, the regulator will have to keep the voltage at 9.9V, if the voltage of the LED shifts, the voltage supplied by the regulator will shift to maintain the 1A current, but I didn't want to get into all that).
The advantage of a boost circuit is obviously 2-fold, getting the higher voltages needed to operate an LED at a high current, and current regulation to keep it constant.
A third advantage can also be a drawback if not limited, that the regulator will keep boosting the voltage as long as it can, drawing more and more current from the batteries as they deplete (as the voltage differential increases), until such point the batteries can't supply the current necessary to overcome the voltage differential, at which point your light suddenly dims and goes out, because the batteries are simply kaput (potentially damaging the batteries in the process as they get excessively undervolted).
 

datiLED

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I just got a Pierce M10i, and it draws 1.1A on high! The low setting is about .38A. It puts out a good amount of light for a 3W Luxeon, but my Seoul emitter should be here soon..... :devil:

Seoul P4 U bin @ 1A = 240lm.

moon lander said:
I know the U2-Style 3W Cree from Dealextreme outputs 1200ma on high mode. some lights use direct drive and can get even higher currents than this with the right kind of batteries.

Anyone know of other lights with regulation that have a high drive current? what about direct drive lights?

i believe a Cree X-RE will output around 200 lumens at 1200ma. alot of lights use 750ma as the high mode. Given the same emitter, wont the higher drive current always be brightest? of course runtime suffers but bright is good.

thanks in advance to anyone who has information or thoughts about this.
 
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