A soldier from CA puzzled me (2nd amendment related)

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TigerhawkT3

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Okay, this is a bit of a story, so get comfortable.

Yesterday at work, one of my boss's former assistants came to visit. He was dressed in a full BDU, and he was about to be shipped out to Iraq.

After shooting the breeze with my boss for awhile, we talked, and of course he asked me about all the things on my belt, just like everyone else does. (Inka, Fisher Bullet, keys, L2D-CE, FT-01XSE P4, ACM, SOG B61, Gladius/FM34, cell phone, another L2D-CE.) After he had "ooh"ed and "aah"ed at everything, he showed me his Gerber multitool (a great "Hajji skinner" because of the rubber/neoprene inserts that provide grip even on a bloody tool). As he put that away, he noticed the pocket clip of my SOG Trident outside my pocket and asked me what it was.

Figuring "aw, he's in the armed forces, he'll understand," I pulled it out, turned off the safety and handed it to him so he could gawp at it. Instead of gawping, though, he started on this big lecture about how knives over 2.25" were considered concealed weapons (I told him that it obviously wasn't concealed, since he had seen the pocket clip and asked what it was, but he completely ignored that), and you should know those are illegal, and his CO told them to always have their military ID on them, just in case, blah blah blah.

Of course, he was still impressed with the Trident once he finished his speech.

I didn't like how he gave me a lecture on how scary and illegal sharp things are, I didn't like how he ignored me when I pointed out that the knife WASN'T CONCEALED, and I really didn't like hearing how if you're going to carry a knife, you had better be in the U.S. federal military, or else you're in big trouble.

The funny part is that I have a document signed by the dean stating that I need a knife to do my job, while this guy was carrying sharp objects on a JC campus without the dean's knowledge or permission! "OMG!"

I obviously kept quiet about the beater folder entirely hidden in one of my cargo pockets.

All in all, this encounter left me puzzled and disenchanted, as I thought our Boys were cooler than that. Did I just meet that 0.1%, or is this attitude more common?

I have to say, these CA state laws sometimes seem opposed to Big Two.
 

270winchester

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California's state constitution does not have a RKBA section like most other states do, and many, many civil servants are simply too happy to relay(sometimes wrong) information. I have had several police officers inform me that my Emerson was a fixed plade because it, get this, a liner lock, and that I should be thankful I didn't get arrested for felony possession of a concealed fixed blade knife, they are jsut that nice.

When you have people in the position of power with a lack of knowledge, sometimes intentionally over-the-line instruction from their supervisors, it's people like you that get screwed in the process.

The whole military versus civilian thing, well, that's a whole other can of worms taht we need not open here. WHile there definitely are Law Enforcement people and military folks today who have read the constitution and the penal codes, a whole lot of them just follow orders and don't ask qeustion because their pension/rank in in jeperody if they refuse to follow orders or even question them.
 

Dawg

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Some folks are just a tad retentive.......try not to let it bother you and look past the fault and try to maintain the perspective of appreciation for their service to country. Indoctrination into the military or law enforcement is a kind of Institutionalization. When I was drafted way back when, I could not believe the changes that took place to some of the guys I shipped out with.

I was a cop and I still cannot believe how "into" the job some guys get. I have a neighbor that is still actively employed as a LEO and I bust his chops constantly for his smarmy righteousness over social issues.

It is good to take the training to heart......it keeps you alive. But you have to know when to turn it off.
 

Nebula

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Tiger - It is natural for you to be upset over being lectured by a stranger. I will not do that, but I do want to take a moment to help you with the facts. First, I assume (correct me if I am wrong) that the Second Amendment you mention is the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and not the California state constitution. My comments here depend on the correctness of my assumption. As you no doubt know, the Second Amendment addresses the right to bear arms. The debate for many years has been whether that right is afforded to an individual or solely to a well armed milita. I may be wrong, but I do not believe that any Court has addressed the protections afforded -if any exist - to an individual where a knife is concerned. If the soldier lectured you on the Second Amendment then he was wrong. Knives and the myriad of laws pertaining to legal carry are typically found in a state's statutes. Obviously where federal property is concerned federal law applies. In the vast majority of the cases pertaining to this issue, public safety and public policy considerations take precedence over an individual's rights.

My next point is to the issue of "concealment." The United States Supreme Court settled this issue many years ago. Under prevailing case law - both federal and state - the "plain view" doctrine is the controlling doctrine. If, as you say, your knife was in plain view then you can not be quilty of carrying a concealed weapon. That said, most courts have determined that what constitutes "plain view" is left to the LEO. Your scientor (intent) does not matter as these statutes are strict liability in application. The butt of a knife - or gun for that matter - protruding from a pocket may in some cases meet the standard. However, I suspect that in the majority of situations it will not. You might be better off showing more of the knife - although that too can be risky. You never know when someone might see it and go screaming to the authorities. If it were me, I would find a copy of the California state statutes pertaining to the carrying of knives, length limits, and concealment. If these statutes validate your position then put a copy in your backpack for those occassions when some snoopy citizen wants to give you a lecture. Good luck. KK
 
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Beamhead

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I would have reminded him that under The Posse Comitatus Act he had no authority to do anything about what was or was not in my pocket.

Gun control is laughable enough to me but knife control is even sadder.

People control is the only answer, use a weapon to commit a real crime
poof.gif
.
 

TigerhawkT3

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Thanks for the responses, everyone! I'm glad some of you pointed out where I wasn't clear, so that I can try to explain myself a little better. Here goes:

Dawg, I MOST DEFINITELY DO appreciate our armed forces and their LDRSHIP. Of course, I don't appreciate getting a lecture about my "concealed" "weapon" from out of the blue when I'm being ten kinds of friendly with the guy.

Nebula, I'm sorry I wasn't clear: the guy referred to CA state laws, not federal. I, however, saw his military status as federal in nature, and I was reminded of how PDOs (Potentially Dangerous Objects - now there's a long list! :) ) are "protected" by a federal law. And whoa - I thought "arms" included everything, from a crude stone tool to a knife to a sword to an M1911A1 to an M870 to an MSG90 to an M82A1, and beyond. The Yahoo! Dictionary defines an "arm" as "A weapon, especially a firearm." So, does Big Two include all "sidearms," or just "firearms," or even "firearms of a particular type"? Please feel free to enlighten me, everyone.

Nebula, I have tried before to find a copy of CA statutes, with no success. I don't even know where to look (I've tried web searches, but those don't really help me much). This leads me to my next point:

THANK YOU, matrixshaman! It looks like I have a good bit of reading ahead of me! :thumbsup:

Once again, many thanks for your understanding and thoughtful posts. :rock:
 

DM51

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I think you just got unlucky and came across an over-officious twerp pretending to be a real soldier. He had no right to lecture you - he wasn't an LEO. If you dug deeper, you'd probably find he had a backroom job counting toilet-rolls, miles from any action.
 

LowBat

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People have different comfort levels. Personally I don't mind if a responsible and law abiding person is carrying a knife or even a firearm. I've been around weapons for so long I rarely give them a second thought other than their safe handling. From time to time I do encounter those people who have gun phobias, and I think a lot of that has to do with a lack of understanding. The automobile is far deadlier and more likely to kill or injure, and having been the victim of several traffic accidents I'm more concerned about cars hitting me than someone shooting at me.
 

BIGIRON

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What DM51 said.

LowBatt, at last gun show I saw bumper sticker - "Guns Don't Kill People - Idiots Talking On Cell Phones While Driving Kill People"
 

gadget_lover

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It's difficult to divorce the person from the uniform, but maybe that's what you shoudl do in this case.

He was obviously not acting in any offical capacity, unless you were on a military base of some sort. He was probably just a guy who'd been recently lectured about the dangers of soldiers carrying THEIR toys when off base, so he was passing on what was impressed upon him.

Some folks just can't help sharing their knowledge, and some do so too stridently. I try to ignore them when I can.

As for arms.....
Arms \Arms\, n. pl. [OE. armes, F. arme, pl. armes, fr. L. arma,
pl., arms, orig. fittings, akin to armus shoulder, and E.
arm. See {Arm}, n.]
1. Instruments or weapons of offense or defense.
[1913 Webster]

So it seems that arms are not restricted to firearms. They woudl have used the words "firearms" if that's all that was meant, I would think.

Daniel
 

Nebula

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Tiger - I will see what I can find and send you a link by PM.

gadget lover - while you are certainly correct in your recitation of the "standard" definition of a weapon, the Second Amendment nonetheless pertains only to firearms. No court has yet drawn the distiction. At least none that I am aware of. About 10 years back the Supreme Court almost had an opportunity to hear a Texas domestic relations case (big nasty divorce - husband threatend estranged wife with his pistol after restraining order had been issued by the court), where for the first time the Court could opine on the Second Amendment and the right of an individual to bear arms. I say almost because if memory serves the case was resolved -on other grounds - before it made it through the Appellate Courts. A little more history - Every case pertaining to the right to bear arms (under the Second Amendment) that has made it beyond the district court level has been decided on the Commerce Clause and not the Second Amendment. The Commmerce Clause is a nice little catch-all that allows a Court to avoid the pitfalls that most legal scholars believe exist within the Second Amendment arguments. I am not taking a position on the matter, just providing a little history to the thread. KK
 
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bjn70

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It seems that knife laws vary quite a bit state by state, as far as locking types, size, straight vs. serrated, concealment, and sharpened 1 edge or 2 edges. It would be wise for a person about to do some travel to check into the laws for all of the states they will be passing through. I used to keep a Gerber with 2.25" blade for when I travelled by airplane, but of course even that one can't be carried onboard now. If there is any question about where I'm travelling these days, I will carry a multitool with me, since it can be viewed more as a "tool" than a "weapon".

I don't think restrictive knife laws do anything WRT reducing crime, but perhaps they are in place to allow law enforcement to arrest people they want to arrest but perhaps don't have any other reason for detaining. (I've been told this by law enforcement officers before.) It also seems that in places where restrictive laws are in force, some people accept them to the point of thinking that anything beyond these laws is overly dangerous, which strikes me as being evidence that the person perhaps isn't very smart.
 

Samuel

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TigerhawkT3 said:
... I have tried before to find a copy of CA statutes, with no success. I don't even know where to look (I've tried web searches, but those don't really help me much).

Just how hard did you try??? Simply typing in "CA statutes" in Google will give you - http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/calaw.html - All CA codes, as the Very First Hit. Look up 626.10 in this section - http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=pen&group=00001-01000&file=626-626.11 You should also check your municipal codes.

Edited to add - btw, if you've got a letter from the dean, it sounds like you've got a pretty good leg to stand on. And, if you're a decent, productive member of society utilizing good common sense, 99.999% of the time (ok I made that % up) you carrying your knife is going to be a non-issue...
 
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ACMarina

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I love that scrolling through CA's laws took ages, and IN laws are on a single page.. Basically I can't have a switchblade or a "Chinese Throwing Star".. but that means I may be able to bring my balisong over, which would be awesome..
 

swampgator

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Had something similiar happen to me at Walmart today. I paid for something at the sporting goods counter then went out through the garden center. The clerk had put my receipt in the bag and I have a habit of tying the bag in a knot at the counter to avoid carrying an open bag through the store. Anyway on the way out the greeter at the garden center asks to see my receipt. I couldn't untie the knot so I pulled out my knife and cut it.

He made the comment that carrying it was the same as carrying a gun. I said no it isn't. Chapter 790 Fl statutes clearly defines what's legal to carry in a knife. Besides, I said as I turned to walk away, how do you know I'm not carrying a gun?

As for soldiers in uniform, it seems that commanders are issuing blanket orders regarding what a soldier can possess while in uniform. I read somewhere recently that the US commander in Alaska now prohibits concealed carry anywhere in the USA by members of his command. So much CYA going on in the Services anymore that no one wants to be responsible for giving someone permission to carry something that might hurt someone.
 

gadget_lover

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Nebula said:
Tiger - I will see what I can find and send you a link by PM.

gadget lover - while you are certainly correct in your recitation of the "standard" definition of a weapon, the Second Amendment nonetheless pertains only to firearms. No court has yet drawn the distiction.


I think there's a typo here somewhere.

If there is no mention of firearms (a subset of "arms") in the Second Amendment and no court has drawn a distinction, then the whole class of arms (knives, bows, swords, handguns, etc) are implied.

I'm pretty sure that in the 1700's, the word "arms" meant the same as it does now.

Daniel
 

TigerhawkT3

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swampgator said:
...
Anyway on the way out the greeter at the garden center asks to see my receipt.
...
One of my buddies has a "thing" about that. They do it at Fry's, and he always just says "no, thanks" when they ask to see his bag and receipt. He says that if you allow them to search your bag, they can fully search you, but if you don't let them search your bag, they can't. If they search you without your consent, that's assault (which is illegal). This issue is really important to him.

But yeah, strange comment from the "greeter." Love that parting comeback! :laughing:
 
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