You got to hand it to china :)

Wow what a difference a few years have made in the oops (LED) LCD lighting products market. I remember the much higher prices and limited selection a few years past and the average prices of lights were pretty high. back then the U2 Ultra was 200+ not for 40-90 dollars you get lights made/assembled in China that are HAIII,digital controls like the U2 and nicely built.

I wonder how this will affect US builders of these products such as Surefire etc.. They are much more conservative,take longer to come out with new products and are much more expensive than their rivals in China.

After Owning Surefires,etc (US made products).. I decided to try out a Fenix P1D-CE which seems like an amazing little light that can be used as a keychain.

Great to see competition in the market and LCD lights of all types becoming more affordable with even more features than in the past. I wonder how our guys here in the US will be able to compete.

I beleive you mean LED? And yes it is come a long way in a relatively short time and is currently in a time of great change again.

They have come a long ways but the quality is not there yet. However the price differential is substantial enough that even the slightly lesser quality can easily be overlooked. Off topic, but when they start selling their cars here (it's coming, just a matter of time) it will really get interesting.

Ignoring the product itself, there is a massive difference in the quality of people, as one can see in Don's thread here...

ACMarina said:

Ignoring the product itself, there is a massive difference in the quality of people, as one can see in Don's thread here...

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I saw that thread earlier......that is really a shame

CM said:

Off topic, but when they start selling their cars here (it's coming, just a matter of time) it will really get interesting.

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They're going to be hard to compete with Korean and Japanese cars already dominating on a world scale. Right now, it's MORE expensive to produce car in China than overseas because of the high cost of parts and machine costs. Japan can make cars cheaper because they mainly use robots and automated machinery. :laughing:

LED lights have sure come a long way, but I'm sure China would rather be in America's position than be in the position they're in now.

Imagine in a parallel word: China was the home of Surefire and Maglites, while America was producing cheap U.S clones based on Chinese design/conception... where American slave labourers follow Chinese templetes, churning out cheap products for big Chinese companies and earning mere pennies in the process; While the China big bosses and Chinese shareholders reap the reward$$$ by selling the product for HUNDREDS of dollars on the street. Sadly for China it's the other way around. :laughing: I think Cree U.S inc is probably laughing all the way to the bank as they sell millions of LEDS to Chinese manufacturers.:lolsign:

hugodrax said:

Wow what a difference a few years have made in the LCD lighting products market. I remember the much higher prices and limited selection a few years past and the average prices of lights were pretty high. back then the U2 Ultra was 200+ not for 40-90 dollars you get lights made/assembled in China that are HAIII,digital controls like the U2 and nicely built.

I wonder how this will affect US builders of these products such as Surefire etc.. They are much more conservative,take longer to come out with new products and are much more expensive than their rivals in China.

After Owning Surefires,etc (US made products).. I decided to try out a Fenix P1D-CE which seems like an amazing little light that can be used as a keychain.

Great to see competition in the market and LCD lights of all types becoming more affordable with even more features than in the past. I wonder how our guys here in the US will be able to compete.

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One thing I do plan on doing is checking out the Quality of the Fenix as compared to my Surefire L1 for example. Although one thing to remember these prices are low mainly due to the Labor costs. Another thing to remember is China has always artificially pushed the Yuan down so they can grab lots of US dollars and sell lots of things cheap to the US. The biggest threat would be the day China decides it is time to break open those Piggy banks filled with US dollars

Anyhow back to the topic of LED, I am surprised Surefire has not released any CREE based lights to the market, it just seems that it is just a drop in replacement with maybe some small modifications to support any changes with the CREE Thermal specs etc.. if there are any at all.

ACMarina said:

Ignoring the product itself, there is a massive difference in the quality of people, as one can see in Don's thread here...

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Ehm, judging a whole race/nation of people based on one individual, isnt that enlightened...

xiaowenzu said:

LED lights have sure come a long way, but I'm sure China would rather be in America's position than be in the position they're in now.

Imagine in a parallel word: China was the home of Surefire and Maglites, while America was producing cheap U.S clones based on Chinese design/conception... where American slave labourers follow Chinese templetes, churning out cheap products for big Chinese companies and earning mere pennies in the process; While the China big bosses and Chinese shareholders reap the reward$$$ by selling the product for HUNDREDS of dollars on the street. Sadly for China it's the other way around. :laughing: I think Cree U.S inc is probably laughing all the way to the bank as they sell millions of LEDS to Chinese manufacturers.:lolsign:

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Actually China is in a strong position, they have grown quickly and are modernizing rather quickly. 25 years ago Beijing was a totally different place compared to today and with more capital comes more resources. The Hungry Lion is always on the hunt and improving its ability to catch prey, The US has become more like a Lion kept at a zoo, Fat and hand feed but losing its ability to hunt in the wild as the days pass. Not a situation to be in if you want to be the #1 Nation 40-50 years from now.

Even amongst the young there is a difference in attitude towards education (ie math,sciences etc..) Than our youth here in the US who seem to be more interested in what Rappers on MTV are wearing or what Paris Hilton did last night.

Anyhow this has gone beyond the subject of LED lights

What I'm impressed about is not so much the low labor costs (which everyone expects) or the quality (Chinese can build very high quality products if they choose to - witness your laptop's internal components and space satellites), it is their speed to market.

They have been much more agile than US companies in taking risks to create new products, designing, producing them, and getting them to market (so we can get them in our hands). If you compare flashlight firsts which created new CLASSES of lights (Fenix L1P, Fenix L0P, Fenix P1, Lumapower D-mini, on/off cycle based variable digital lights - LOP-SE et al, and now Cree/P4 based lights), no other set of manufacturers comes even close to approaching their speed of innovation. This is not "slave labor" or "low quality production", this is smart, focused engineering backed up by entrepenurial manufacturers and lean manufacturing processes. I've got to hand it to them for that...

Point taken, but I'm not judging the quality of a whole nation on that simple act alone. But there are two people that have done this to Don. And who knows how many others have done this to other members, and this is looking at flashlights alone!

I'm not against Chinese people in any way. What I am against is people who steal other people's ideas, be they in America or China or anywhere..

hugodrax said:

The biggest threat would be the day China decides it is time to break open those Piggy banks filled with US dollars

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That is unlikely because there'd be no buyers if EVERYONE were sellers. - it's just like printing money.. the more you print the less it's worth. I'd be more worried about the money that America has borrowed from China, that will never be returned, but keep on borrowing. :laughing:

hugodrax said:

Anyhow back to the topic of LED, I am surprised Surefire has not released any CREE based lights to the market, it just seems that it is just a drop in replacement with maybe some small modifications to support any changes with the CREE Thermal specs etc.. if there are any at all.

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They're coming in June/July. They've invested a lot of money to change the optics of the Surefires to match the new Cree LEDs, which reflect light differently to the Lux. Crees main problem is that they're less 'floody' but Surefire has red-designed the TIR lens to make it as floody as the Luxeons. It's going to a great wait.

I'm not doubting China is in a strong position, but as a Chinese I am aware of many huge obstacles which China faces today - as they are a developing country.. which is overlooked by foreigners who choose to see China through rose tinted glasses. I'm sure China would give anything to be in America's position, right now.. with their world leading companies and technology.

I disagree that America is 'fat and hand feed' - that is simply a funny and untrue generalization. :laughing: America's privatisation of companies, unlike China's government run, are more entreprenueristic and quicker in converting inventions/concepts into profits.

My uncle in China earns pennies working for NIKE conglomerate. For every cent he earns, the American juggernaut reaps $hundreds of dollars in profit, benefitting mostly American shareholders. As they say the rich get richer and poor get poorer. As China becomes richer, America (along with other industrialized nations) become EVEN MORE richer.

hugodrax said:

Actually China is in a strong position, they have grown quickly and are modernizing rather quickly. 25 years ago Beijing was a totally different place compared to today and with more capital comes more resources. The Hungry Lion is always on the hunt and improving its ability to catch prey, The US has become more like a Lion kept at a zoo, Fat and hand feed but losing its ability to hunt in the wild as the days pass. Not a situation to be in if you want to be the #1 Nation 40-50 years from now.

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I'd love a picture of the Fenix factory.

You are targeting people in China with this comment where Don at least admits it happens here. Also I feel bad for Don, but if he is willing to send a $225.00 flashlight to another country without payment then he does kinda deserves the lesson learned. How many stores/dealers send their product before payment? Most places won't even order an item without a deposit.

ACMarina said:

Ignoring the product itself, there is a massive difference in the quality of people, as one can see in Don's thread here...

Click to expand...

hugodrax said:

I wonder how this will affect US builders of these products such as Surefire etc.. They are much more conservative,take longer to come out with new products and are much more expensive than their rivals in China.

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While the Chinese products are cheaper, there is not much innovation going on there. Mostly, they are copying what non-Chinese manufacturers have done before.

The innovative products are from western countries.

Sarratt said:

I'd love a picture of the Fenix factory.

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I second that! I would like to see where they are made and maybe even the employees.

hugodrax said:

The biggest threat would be the day China decides it is time to break open those Piggy banks filled with US dollars

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Dude it just happened a few days ago !!

Asia Times

BBC

Perfectionist said:

Dude it just happened a few days ago !!

Asia Times

BBC

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And then this happened. Chinese share market fell:

http://www.radioaustralia.net.au/asiapac/programs/s1859847.htm