Elephant In the Room 3/19/07

One subject the staff of the CPF would rather not have us discuss is the Iraq War, because it's too easy for the interchange to degenerate. Sorry to make life harder for the great folks who keep the CPF on line, but the war's 4th anniversery should be acknowledged.

First: I'd like to thank those who've served, will serve, and their families - my heart goes out to you. Your's is a great sacrifice.

Second: I'm deeply troubled by the death and destruction of so many innocent families in Iraq and the USA. I feel so very sorry for this tragedy. Both political parties share responsibility for the war and we citizens are responsible for electing those in power.

Third & last: Rather than "staying the course" may I suggest considering a look at the Greens, Libertarian and other Third Party platforms before voting the next time? I'm not confident either major party takes us seriously enough, yet. Contact your reps with your concerns and show respect for those who've died to preserve our right to vote by doing so in every election.

:thanks: to all our military personal, that keep us safe so we can :sleepy: in peace. I pray for you all every night. :candle:

Well said buddy.

Well said. May your thread thrive and prosper.

I turned 20 during the VietNam war. My brother served in the infantry there.

I've always felt that we need to honor the sacrifices our military personnel make to serve our country.

They don't get to choose their fights. They go where they are ordered and do what they need to do. It is up to us as non-enlisted citizens to be sure that we fight the right wars and only expect the military to be asked to do what our military is best at: defeating another army. Our military is quite good at this. They are so good, in fact, that many in our country look to the military to solve all sorts of problems. Even problems for which an army may not be the most effective solution.

Also of note.... 3/19/07 will be the second eclipse to take place this month... :thinking:

I'm with ikendu

God Bless Our Troops!!

I'm not sure our representatives are reachable.

I sent two e-mails to Diane Fienstein. I proposed that they simply ban future changes to the DST laws unless the vote is unanimous. I don't care if there is DST or not, but it screws with my computers when they mess with teh rules.

The first reply thanked me for expressing my opinion that DST was a good thing and assured me she'd voted to save energy.

I wrote back and clarified my proposal.

The second reply thanked me for the suggestion that we stay on one time all year round, and went on to say that she'd voted against some report that supported DST's value.


Unless you can buy face time with her, I don't think MY senator will get any moderately complex message no matter what the message is.

Daniel

ikendu said:

I've always felt that we need to honor the sacrifices our military personnel make to serve our country.

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The American military is the very best of America.

In over 200 years, it has never let us down.

We have a better military than we deserve.


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ringzero said:

The American military is the very best of America.

In over 200 years, it has never let us down.

We have a better military than we deserve.


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March to the Sea. Yeah, that's the definition of "very best."

Datasaurusrex said:

March to the Sea. Yeah, that's the definition of "very best."

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Y'all from JawJuh?

Datasaurusrex said:

March to the Sea. Yeah, that's the definition of "very best."

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Absolutely.

"We're going to make Georgia howl!"

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sysadmn said:

Y'all from JawJuh?

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Inconsequential.

Try July 11-13, 1863.

Yes there is a 200 year history: at least people could try to understand what created the modern machine, and what was lost in the process.

Datasaurusrex said:

Inconsequential.

Try July 11-13, 1863.

Yes there is a 200 year history: at least people could try to understand what created the modern machine, and what was lost in the process.

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The New York City Draft Riots... yes... so? What does that have to do with the March to the Sea? And what does that have to do with the soldiers, sailors, airmen, marines etc who are currently VOLUNTARILY serving this country? Yes, there is history. And obviously, we have learned from it... (please note that there is not one member currently serving in the United States Armed Services INvoluntarily).

On a side note... I just went to see the movie "300" tonight. Now THOSE were soldiers!! :wow: And compaired to the Spartans, this young country has no clue at all what the "draft" is...

Yeah 300 was a great movie. I liked the rhino.

Datasaurusrex said:

Inconsequential.

Try July 11-13, 1863.

Yes there is a 200 year history: at least people could try to understand what created the modern machine, and what was lost in the process.

Click to expand...

Without climbing up on my soapbox, too much, likely the American Civil War was the most divisive, and had arguably the most impact of any war in American history.

Six hundred thousand soldiers died. (With a high percentage from disease and infection).

That was 2%(!) of the population of the USA.

Talk about sacrifice!

Letter from Sullivan Ballou to his wife, during the Civil War:


July 14, 1861
Camp Clark, Washington

My very dear Sarah:

The indications are very strong that we shall move in a few days—perhaps tomorrow. Lest I should not be able to write again, I feel impelled to write a few lines that may fall under your eye when I shall be no more . . .

I have no misgivings about, or lack of confidence in the cause in which I am engaged, and my courage does not halt or falter. I know how strongly American Civilization now leans on the triumph of the Government and how great a debt we owe to those who went before us through the blood and sufferings of the Revolution. And I am willing—perfectly willing—to lay down all my joys in this life, to help maintain this Government, and to pay that debt . . .

Sarah my love for you is deathless, it seems to bind me with mighty cables that nothing but Omnipotence could break; and yet my love of Country comes over me like a strong wind and bears me unresistibly on with all these chains to the battle field.

The memories of the blissful moments I have spent with you come creeping over me, and I feel most gratified to God and to you that I have enjoyed them for so long. And hard it is for me to give them up and burn to ashes the hopes of future years, when, God willing, we might still have lived and loved together, and seen our sons grown up to honorable manhood, around us. I have, I know, but few and small claims upon Divine Providence, but something whispers to me—perhaps it is the wafted prayer of my little Edgar, that I shall return to my loved ones unharmed. If I do not my dear Sarah, never forget how much I love you, and when my last breath escapes me on the battle field, it will whisper your name. Forgive my many faults and the many pains I have caused you. How thoughtless and foolish I have often times been! How gladly would I wash out with my tears every little spot upon your happiness . . .

But, O Sarah! If the dead can come back to this earth and flit unseen around those they loved, I shall always be near you; in the gladdest days and in the darkest nights . . . always, always, and if there be a soft breeze upon your cheek, it shall be my breath, as the cool air fans your throbbing temple, it shall be my spirit passing by. Sarah do not mourn me dead; think I am gone and wait for thee, for we shall meet again . . .


Sullivan Ballou was killed a week later at the first Battle of Bull Run, July 21, 1861.


Born March 28, 1829 in Smithfield, R.I., Ballou was educated at Phillips Academy in Andover, Mass.; Brown University in Providence, R.I. and the National Law School in Ballston, N.Y. He was admitted to the Rhode Island Bar in 1853.

Ballou devoted his brief life to public service. He was elected in 1854 as clerk of the Rhode Island House of Representatives, later serving as its speaker.
He married Sarah Hart Shumway on October 15, 1855, and the following year saw the birth of their first child, Edgar. A second son, William, was born in 1859.

Ballou immediately entered the military in 1861 after the war broke out. He became judge advocate of the Rhode Island militia and was 32 at the time of his death at the first Battle of Bull Run on July 21, 1861.

When he died, his wife was 24. She later moved to New Jersey to live out her life with her son, William, and never re-married. She died at age 80 in 1917.
Sullivan and Sarah Ballou are buried next to each other at Swan Point Cemetery in Providence, RI. There are no known living descendants.

Ironically, Sullivan Ballou's letter was never mailed. Although Sarah would receive other, decidedly more upbeat letters, dated after the now-famous letter from the battlefield, the letter in question would be found among Sullivan Ballou's effects when Gov. William Sprague of Rhode Island traveled to Virginia to retrieve the remains of his state's sons who had fallen in battle.

Think of 600,000 stories, many not as tragic, some even more so, like this one.....

300, good movie, and good story.

Draft riots, & march to the sea ('total warfare') show a fundamental shift away from the form of military that freed us from the yoke of the English. That shift has just gone further since the late 1800s. Most of our founding fathers would find our standing military, and interventionist policies, deplorable.

There is active draft registration (thanks Jimmi). There is a mechanism by which citizens could be forcefully conscripted. Hmm, you're exempt Sasha and imho since you're not directly affected then I take your input on the topic with a grain of salt. When YOU have to sign a draft card, then feel free to get back to me.

We currently have a volunteer military. There are conscientious objectors being forced to serve but to me it's a different catagory as the draft, even though it is a form of involuntary service.

Yes we have one of the best trained military in the world. Many of it's members are absolutly awesome people. Some of them are the dregs of society and they will come back to roost sometime soon.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/005130.htm

Here's the machine at work in NOLA:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kf8trl69kzo
You have to wait for the last few seconds.

National Guard Comander, "You never expect to do this in your own country"

National Guard Member, "Walking up and down these streets, you don't want to think about the stuff you're going to have to do [if] sombody pops up [from] around a corner."

Reporter, "You mean shoot them?"

National Guard Member, "Yeah"

Excuse me for being a bit jaded.

I so often see people posting "Freedom isn't free".

I very much believe that. In fact, in my late teens, I toured Ohio with a local cast of Up With People and sang many times a stirring song entitled "Freedom Isn't Free".

There is a price of freedom though, that is often ignored; the responsibility to be informed and to participate in the governance of our country. We are many times all too willing to let those in power tell us "This is complicated. Just back off. Let us figure out what is the right thing to do and trust us."

To be a responsible citizen means reading, thinking, learning and then acting on the knowledge. It means looking deeper into situations than just letting a leader tell you "They hate us for our freedom" and letting them drive the show based on such a simplistic viewpoint.

"Freedom isn't free" shouldn't just mean that people with no savings or prospects join the National Guard and then are ordered to invade Iraq on our behalf. We should not confuse "I joined the National Guard with no prospects" with "I volunteered to fight because I know the cause is right and I am for it". I'm sure many of our volunteers HAVE volunteered because they feel the fight is just and they are willing to make the sacrifice. We shouldn't imagine that they all feel that way AND... that it makes it OK to allow our government to order them to Iraq. There is a certain coercive aspect to our present "all volunteer" army that doesn't relieve us of our responsibility as citizens of a democracy.

Sorry, when I see our leaders declare a "crusade" without any apparent understanding of what the crusades were all about, it "sticks in my craw".

Freedom isn't free. That's right. And... it means more than sending our poor off to fight our wars for us.

Those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it's failures.

Rome switched from a citizen army to an army of hired professionals ...that didn't work out in the end.

Data... FWIW, no I didn't and don't have to sign a draft card... but that didn't stop me from signing up anyway. Yeah... go figure... I was a soldier once... voluntarily... but you can call me a veteran now, if you'd like. And when I was done with that stint, I put in another 13 years as a soldier's wife. Oh, did I mention that he was there voluntarily too? And I have a 16 year old son who will be signing a draft card. Hmmm.... does that affect me directly? I'd say so. How do I feel about it? Proud... very, very proud. My guess is that I have personally been more directly affected by the policies and actions of the United States Armed Forces than you will ever be in your lifetime... so I'm sure you'll understand if I take your input on the topic with a grain of salt.

BTW... do you happen to know how many US citizens have been conscripted into the US Military in the past 27 years? :thinking:

Numbers? Ok.... as of March 16th, 2007, "... 3,208 members of the U.S. military have died since the beginning of the Iraq war in March 2003, according to an Associated Press count. The figure includes seven military civilians. At least 2,581 died as a result of hostile action, according to the military's numbers." ... Hell! That's not even as many as died at the World Trade Center IN ONE DAY!! I'm not trying to minimize the losses of any one of those 3,208 lives, however if you're going to compare losses or talk losses... then let's talk about them in real numbers and let's compare them properly.

ikendu... good post! :thumbsup: ... I'll submit this to you though... every single member of the US Armed forces (whether active duty or reserve or national guard or whatever) had to swear an oath and sign a "contract" voluntarily in order to "join". The oath and the contract are very clear (I know. I've sworn the oath and signed the contract.) as to what *IS* expected of them. There is absolutely NO lack of disclosure. So for someone to later claim, "Wait! I didn't sign up for THAT! I didn't KNOW!", it's pure ignorance... and a poor excuse. Can't blame the government, or anyone else for that matter, for a lack of personal responsibility or blind ignorance. "Well I didn't really think it would happen...." .... Ok. So you swore an oath and signed a contract with the thought that it wouldn't happen so it doesn't count so you'll just agree to it anyway but not really mean it. Ok... well... surprise!... we meant it.

I haven't chimed in yet, but I decided to do so now

I live in an army town. I know these people. I work with them, I work with their families. I stand in line with them at the lunch counter. They are not uneducated or crass, they are regular people being given a lot of training and responsibility at a young age. But they are excellent folks and they deserve our respect for what they have to do. That there are a few well publicized cases of individuals that are being forced to go when they have decided that they dont want to is unavoidable, but those people do not represent anything approaching a significant number of them.

Another thing that bugs me in general about this whole thing is that bumper sticker length slogans do not translate well into foreign policy. It's clever and funny and all but not very useful when it comes down to it. There are a lot of armchair generals out there telling us what we should be doing or not doing and those people are the ones that deserve our ridicule, not the ones trying their best on the ground in Iraq who make some mistakes.

I am suspicious of many decisions made by the current administration. I find much of the motivation suspect and the documentation to be worse. However I am not so deluded as to think that I can do a bumper sticker slogan survey on the internet and decide I understand the situation enough to put in my own 2 cents.

In it's most general form I support the action in Iraq. I watch the news and I do not come away with the impression that things are worse off, but rather I see a people trying very hard to pull themselves together and doing a pretty good job of it. I expected better results faster, I blame bad decisions and bad policy, at least I think I do. But how am I qualified to judge it? Perhaps in spite of everything this is the best we can do at the moment.

I can't be an armchair general and tell you what I think would have been the best course of action, or the best anything about this. I can only tell you that I know for certain that those that preach easy and simple answers and want to sell you bumper stickers are wrong about it. Real life is never that simple.