Covert marketing at CPF? (whats your take?)

it seems to me that theres quite a bit of covert marketing going on at CPF.


im not talking about listing your lights in your sig, either.

thats to say- i suspect interested parties make stealth posts without disclosure. i suspect a fair bit of it actually.

ive even noticed what i think to be "straw man" that routinly serves as a foil to a "hardliner"

there may be more i dont see.


i was wondering what the community thought of it?

am i crazy, or perhaps is CPF totally okay with it free-market style?

at some of my other communities -this sort of thing is a legendary issue.
and is possibly handled in a different way than it is here.

could i just simply be mistaken about all this?

(i posted this to the community forum for discussion, and not the fixit forum because i dont know if anything is broke, but please move as nessacary)

Would you please provide us with an example of a post/thread in CPF that possibly belongs to that category in your opinion?

-N

Nereus said:

Would you please provide us with an example of a post/thread in CPF that possibly belongs to that category in your opinion?

-N

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No, that would be very unwise and could cause more harm than good.
its not about pointing fingers. -Sorry, i wont do it.

it would allso lend the power of suggestion to what i have said, and a witch hunt is not the idea either.

as much as backing up what you say is the right thing most times,
there are some times when less is more.

allso, this sort of scenario in question may be accepted normally here, where i am used to drastically different circumstances elsewhere.

again, i might be mistaken here completely with some pretty crazy baseless ideas. if i am, then thats going to come out pretty quick.

but then, there may be some people wondering the same things as me, and those people would make their voices heard as well.

Ok, I see your point - the phenomenon you describe is just new to me and an example would have helped. :thinking:
-N

orionlion82, I do remember reading about Peter Kim's actions back around that time. It would be unwise to assume that major light manufacturers are not members here. Everything we say here in regards to design and flaws goes right back to the respective companies. Im sure there are examples of what your are pointing out but nothing as bad as the you are reffering to.

DUQ said:

orionlion82, I do remember reading about Paul Kim's actions back around that time.

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I'm kinda curious what you are referring to here?

DUQ said:

orionlion82, I do remember reading about Paul Kim's actions back around that time.

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Do you mean Peter Kim, from orionlion82's link, or Paul Kim, which makes us think of PK of Surefire?

DUQ said:

orionlion82, I do remember reading about Paul Kim's actions back around that time. It would be unwise to assume that major light manufacturers are not members here. Everything we say here in regards to design and flaws goes right back to the respective companies. Im sure there are examples of what your are pointing out but nothing as bad as the you are reffering to.

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Well, the Silenx issue is the most clear EXAMPLE i know of of this sort of thing, however, it is just an -example- of the spirit of the things i worry about.

i think a few accounts held covertly by light manufacturers (perhaps "the boss") arent a bad thing at all, and i would hope some companies have that level of interest, as it would be a benifit to everyone.
maybe thats the case, maybe it isnt and the truth is likely somewhere inbetween. this isnt a bad thing nessacarily.

my concern is more with covert *marketing*, and less the exec with his ear to the ground who might engauge in some witty banter in an off-topic forum or something along those lines.

perhaps a smart guy in the office has a bright idea.
or perhaps a company pressures an employee to do something that pushes it a little bit.
or perhaps, you might find an independant contractor sort of scenario.

in enthusiast communities such as this, with expensive hardware at stake,
ive seen great examples of doing buisness the right way and sometimes the wrong way.

the SilenX example is the ultimate classic, but the ugly, public collapse of monarch computer recorded in the history of several computer forums not too long ago is another, however not exactly marketing, just ugly underhandedness, and lack of disclosure by quite a few interested parties.

mostly, the best ive seen are reps and the like, who fully disclose, and do buisness the old fashoined, right way. allways professional and proper, and do outstanding buisness, while being deeply appreciated by the community. it seems we have a few here like that, from what ive read and encountered.


im still not really sure what approach this community takes to covert marketing, however, and i dont know enough to be confident that its an issue taken seriously here or not.

if everybody is cool with it here, then thats just how things are. and ill either learn to like it, or perhaps not be so proud of my membership.
if it dosnt fly here- and if people overlook it, then its a different story.

(And to clarify, i havnt yet heard of anyone named paul kim, and was not refering to him.)

remember, i could just be crazy and have a silly conspiracy theory that does not hold water, but a good discussion never hurt.

orionlion82 said:

(And to clarify, i havnt yet heard of anyone named paul kim, and was not refering to him.)

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Hehe... you've never heard of someone named Paul Kim? How about someone named "PK"?

orionlion82 said:

it seems to me that theres quite a bit of covert marketing going on at CPF.


im not talking about listing your lights in your sig, either.

thats to say- i suspect interested parties make stealth posts without disclosure. i suspect a fair bit of it actually.

ive even noticed what i think to be "straw man" that routinly serves as a foil to a "hardliner"

there may be more i dont see.


i was wondering what the community thought of it?

am i crazy, or perhaps is CPF totally okay with it free-market style?

at some of my other communities -this sort of thing is a legendary issue.
and is possibly handled in a different way than it is here.

could i just simply be mistaken about all this?

(i posted this to the community forum for discussion, and not the fixit forum because i dont know if anything is broke, but please move as nessacary)

Click to expand...

I'm lost on this one - really don't quite understand the terms you have used here and am very fuzzy about what you are thinking. I think it is obvious there are people around trying to influence buying habits - but then it seems SO obvious that it doesn't bother me. I just let the reviews and majority opinions on a product that eventually come out direct my purchases for the most part. I'm not real clear on your concern but I don't think it is anything to be worried about. If you have a particular example that might clarify things feel free to PM me.

Sasha said:

Hehe... you've never heard of someone named Paul Kim? How about someone named "PK"?

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i havnt been looking out for the handle, but i tend to lurk a bit, so i may have seen it an not noticed.

I might be full of crazy ideas, but i try to get things right as best i can, and try to do the right thing.

Is there official input on the issue sasha?

orionlion82 said:

i havnt been looking out for the handle, but i tend to lurk a bit, so i may have seen it an not noticed.

I might be full of crazy ideas, but i try to get things right as best i can, and try to do the right thing.

Is there official input on the issue sasha?

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No... there is no official input on this issue...

FYI... Paul Kim (aka "PK") is the Vice-President of engineering for SureFire Flashlights... and a CPF member...

matrixshaman said:

I'm lost on this one - really don't quite understand the terms you have used here and am very fuzzy about what you are thinking. I think it is obvious there are people around trying to influence buying habits - but then it seems SO obvious that it doesn't bother me. I just let the reviews and majority opinions on a product that eventually come out direct my purchases for the most part. I'm not real clear on your concern but I don't think it is anything to be worried about. If you have a particular example that might clarify things feel free to PM me.

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people trying to influence other peopls buying habits, who speak highly of products are known as fanboys in terms i am fimilliar with. people have their reasons for that, and this isnt my concern.

people taking some sort of compensation for it without disclosing it is what i am wondering about. the whole idea is that there could be some of it going on -but covertly. of course that means they are trying not to be found out, so it would be hard to spot.

There's a few select self-appointed members of the CPF BS-debunking Police. Sooner or later that hype catches up to the perpetrators. I must say, though, it's getting tougher and tougher as our membership grows, the offerings are more varied, more people want cheap lights, and don't do their homework before buying, etc. My 0.02 lumens.

On the other hand, there are several members who like to promote what they think are reputable lights and vendors. I'm guilty of being a Pila fan, as much as Size15 likes SF's, and Paul_in_Maryland raves about Wolf Eyes, for example. That doesn't preclude us from pointing out flaws and designs in those brands, and neither it urges us to recommend a Pila light when what the CPFer asking wants is a keychain light, or a high-powered incandescent from our "favorite" brand when what a person is after is a small LED light... (Yes, I see that done.) :shakehead:

BTW, I'm interested in examples as well. It's hard to gauge the level of BS if one doesn't know what it smells like. PM me if you don't want to go public with this.

You know there's that little red triangle for reporting posts to moderators too...

I have to say im not willing to PM anybody my direct suspicions, and at this point even i wonder if my suspicions were sound in the first place.

it seems like so far- my little conspiracy theory does not have much traction.
thats a good sign, even if it makes me look silly.

a lack of BS means we all win.

I think I understand what OrionLion is referring to, and I can't say that I see it.

The problem is trying to figure out who is a "covert" marketer, and who is just a passionate fan of a particular light or company.

GreenLED mentioned himself as an advocate for Pila, and of course Size15's for Surefire. A few months ago, I'm sure someone could have looked at my posts and called me a "JetBeam fanboy." I defended Emillion when nearly everyone else was bashing him and accusing him of fraud, etc., and I would recommend JetBeam at every opportunity.

How things change.

After all the delays with Emillion releasing the C-LE, and then with the multiple complaints of thread issues - which were allegedly part of the reason for the delay and were supposedly fixed - in addition to what I feel is a cumbersome and majorly over-engineered U.I. in the MkIIx, I don't recommend JetBeam anymore.

When the Fenix L1DCE came out, it became my new favorite light, and I wasn't shy about singing it's praises. Now, I've got a RexLight on order, and who knows... maybe I'll look like a RexLight "fanboy" after receiving it.

My point is...

We're all more than a little interested in flashlights around here, some more than others. "Flashaholism" is discussed frequently, as are the methods of keeping our habit "in the closet" from family members or others who would think we're nuts if they saw how we really felt about "just a dumb light. "We're PASSIONATE about flashlights (again, some more than others), and this is reflected in our posts and our opinions.

I can see how some posts and opinions could certainly look like stealth advertisements. I think that 99.9% of those aren't.

:shrug:

do you mean like this prepay?

http://candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=155273&page=1&pp=20

i hope i am not one of those people. take my sig for example, i do not know Steven on a peosonal note, he does not pay me to advertise for him, all i get from him is a great big thank you, and i dont mind it becuase he is a friend to me and he is the best flashlight vendor i know. he always sticks to his word and will never leave you out in the cold. he is truley a great guy. i will probably never meet him but i am still a good friend to him(i hope).

I think I know a shill when when I see one, but with no proof, I keep my mouth shut. The admins can probably spot some of the less sophisticated shills by looking at the IP addresses. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill