Cheaper SUREFIRE lamps and lights using E2 design concept

One reason for the expense of regular Surefire lamps is the production of highly sophisticated integrated lamp/reflector assemblies, manufactured to close tolerances and individually tested and confirmed. I believe that there has been a tacit, unquestioning assumption on the part of most of us that this is the way it must be, regardless of the cost.

But, with the E2 Surefire has proven that this is not the way it has to be. Note the comparative expense of the P60 and the MN03: The 65 lumen P60 is only 8% brighter than the 60 lumen MN03 but costs 54% percent more.

BRIGHTGUY
P60 (65 lumens) $20.00
MN03 (60 lumens) $13.00
P60 54% more than MN03 ($ 7.00)


ARIZONA G R
P60 (65 lumens) $18.00
MN03 (60 lumens) $11.70
P60 54% more than MN03 ($ 6.30)

The P60 is also 500% heavier (.5oz vs .1oz) and approximately 300% larger. Admittedly, these large percentages seem worse than they are because the size and weight are very small to begin with. But it is the accumulation of small differences that result in a significantly larger, heavier flashlight.

If you examine the P60, its complexity and expense is immediately apparent. The lamp is set in a reflector that appears to be crafted from a solid aluminum block, which is glued to a ceramic base to which two individual spring contacts are concentrically attached. It is a model of excellence and complexity necessitating relatively high production costs.

In contrast, the MN03 is simply a lamp set in a plastic base with + and – plates.

The critical component that makes an inexpensive, small and simple lamp possible is the single reflector permanently built into the head. The plastic lamp flange fits directly against the reflector base plate and the lamp itself fits neatly into the base plate's center hole.

Does this "springless" arrangement make the MN03 more vulnerable to breakage than the standard SF lamps? Quite the contrary according to some E2 owners who have found that the MN03 is at least as strong and possibly tougher and less prone to breakage than the spring-mounted lamps, and according to my own deliberate but anxiety provoking "drop test". I dropped the E2 (original model) tail-first from a height of four feet onto a concrete sidewalk with no damage to lamp or light. I will leave any head-first drop tests to Flashaholics who are braver than I am.

A cheaper lamp would not be the sole benefit of this design change. A redesigned 6P (D2) or other light using this principle would be shorter, lighter and possibly less expensive than the current version.

In addition to the E2, The turbo-type heads use this reflector design and the turbo lamps, although not reflector-integrated, do use the dual spring arrangement and a long tubular body possibly necessitated by the very deep, large diameter heads, which may be a reason for their relatively high cost.

The E2 proves that a spring-mounted integrated lamp/reflector assembly is not necessary to achieve a consistently superior beam from a 2x123 light.. It is also clear that a simple lamp assembly is smaller lighter and cheaper to manufacture than the standard Surefire lamp and demonstrates equal or superior damage resistance.

It is possible that this "springless" design may be comfortably applied to more powerful lights, but it may be more appropriate for "Executive" rather than true "professional" lights where rough usage is anticipated.

Brightnorm

You know what this really proves?

You have entirely too much time on your hands!!!

True, but least he's our goofball!!!

I think a blown lamp would be easier to remedy in a 6P. An E2/E2e would most likely need a new bezel. I can't see myself cleaning one out with a Q-Tip.

Brightnorm, I believe that the lamp/reflector setup is an old design. As you might see, most other newer models use different approach. M3, M4, M6, 9AN, 10X all have reflector built with bezel.

I also found the same on Streamlight products. They only have LA/reflector design on SL series and use non-reflector LA on all their newer models.

Personally, I would be very reluctant to purchase flashlight which use LA/reflector design as it is not environmental. That's the reason I don't have M2

Alan

Good points.

Thinking about it, when bulbs go, it is rare for the reflector to get damaged. Also, the lamps with reflectors are more prone to getting dirty because they are difficult to store, and handle - almost impossible to clean without making things worse.

The spring contacts are very high quality - thick Nickel-plated and such.

Notice that the M2D & C2D will have bulbs like the E series, and just as the reflector is built into the Bezel, the spring contacts are built into the body!

Not only does it cost time and money to make the likes of the P60, but also a waste of effort and resources to throw away some of the highest quality components in the flashlight industry!

Al

I cannot agree less!!! Replacing a blown P60 needs replacing the entire lamp assembly. The result is throwing away a mint condition reflector. Not only this is unenvironmental friendly, it jack up the REPLACEMENT cost of the lamp assembly.

Integrated assembly does not necessarily result in quality beams. I have several SF before and I do not find all the beam pattern is consistently better than a scorpion.

This is why I refrian from buying SF with integrated LA.

On the other hand, replacement cost for bulbs without an integrated lamp assembly does not necessarily mean lowered cost. I just bought a replacement bulbs for the 8X turbo head and it, the bulb itself, cost 25% of the entire flashlight itself. THIS IS SIMPLY UNREASONABLE AND RIDICULOUS AND NOT ACCEPTABLE.

The bulb blown and stop working only after TEN FREAKING SECONDS after I switched it on. I have used the bulb for a total of not more than five minutes.

So the lesson is never ever turn on the flashlight immediately after it was charged. I suspect the voltage is too high for the bulb. I think this is a design fault and the always praised SF customer service is turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to my problem. I still have a blown bulb handy to remind me not to immediately turn the flashlight one after it was charged.

In this respect, I am really really disappointed at the SF quality and, the SF customer service. IT REALLY SUCKS.

But are the LA's for the M2D and similar seriously going to be cheaper just because there is no reflector anymore? I doubt it.

just like the plastic bag recyling bins at the front of the market, we should try to do something with broken LA's. thats alot of wasted aluminum.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by K-T:
But are the LA's for the M2D and similar seriously going to be cheaper just because there is no reflector anymore? I doubt it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

During a liftime of moderate to heavy use, the light would go through at least several lamp/reflector assemblies, each one made from a solid billet of high quality aluminum, shaped and polished to very high tolerances, the lamp precisely prefocused, mounted on a high quality ceramic base, integrated with two very fine quality nickel springs precisely placed in a concentric configuration, and all that combined into one quite complex unified unit. Every time the lamp fails, either through accident or normal usage all those fine, precise ingredients are thrown out and become garbage.

Contrast all that with a lamp mounted in a ceramic or plastic base with two simple contacts.

Yes, I do believe that the cheaper materials and manufacturing costs would result in a significantly less expensive lamp on the retail level as the E2 so aptly demonstrates. I am not referring to the turbo lamps, as they are highly specialized
components which may have to remain in their present configuration, although even they may be redesigned to "reflect" the above principles.

Brightnorm

The purchase of a Surefire lamp is like the purchase of a yacht. If you have to ask the price, you can't afford either.

You know what this proves? You have entirely too much time on your hands!!!

Wrong spelling. It should be thyme. Yes, I do indeed have thyme as well as oregano on my hands when I make spaghetti and meat balls.

True, but at least he's our goofball!!!

How did you know what my girlfriend calls me?

Brightnorm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tombeis:
The purchase of a Surefire lamp is like the purchase of a yacht. If you have to ask the price, you can't afford either.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tombeis,

But what if the choice is between a yacht and a flashlight?

What if you, as a Flashoholic could have one, but not the other? And NO, you couldn't sell the yacht in order to buy an eternity's supply of Surefires.

Chew on that one for a while!

Brightnorm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hairydog:
... for the 8X turbo head and it, the bulb itself, cost 25% of the entire flashlight itself. THIS IS SIMPLY UNREASONABLE AND RIDICULOUS AND NOT ACCEPTABLE.

... the always praised SF customer service is turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to my problem. I still have a blown bulb handy to remind me not to immediately turn the flashlight one after it was charged.

In this respect, I am really really disappointed at the SF quality and, the SF customer service. IT REALLY SUCKS.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

C'mon hairydog, you must have known the replacement LA cost before you bought the light. (Not that that makes them any cheaper !!)

That apart, I agree with you and others - throwing away a whole LA is a shame when only the filament or envelope are broken. Ecologically, it's not acceptable. And I hate to see a piece of fine engineering thrown away.

About your SF Customer Service complaint, what is the full story ? They can be slower than I would like sometimes, but they don't disclaim responsibility. Please let me/us know exactly what you mean ?

Incidentally, on SFDB, Stuart recently confirmed that there had been a batch of poor X80's.

Brightnorm, all the signs are that SF is moving in the direction of having springs and reflectors built into the light itself, so a simpler LA could be used.

lightlover

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *something ridiculous ?:

Brightnorm, all the signs are that SF is moving in the direction of having springs and reflectors built into the light itself, so a simpler LA could be used.

lightlover<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's good to know

BN