I'm less than happy with Cree based lights

Al_Havemann

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A crusade for usability.

I now own three different CREE based lights and I'm not happy with any of them (get out the flamethrowers, I know I'm gonna burn for this).

I have a Fenix L0D CE, an L2D CE and a P1D CE and, in my opinion, none of them really work well.

The L0D is the most functional of the bunch in that it's actually useful since it starts at a reasonable brightness level, still has a dim mode when I need it and has reasonable, though not great, side spill. Unfortunately, I just can't stand the flickering at the lower two levels. Still, I admit that is an impressive light for its size and it remains on my shelf of "good lights" along with a couple of dozen other fine lights from various manufactures.

The P1D CE, unlike my older P1D is just too tightly focused and doesn't have enough side spill. The various modes are occasionally useful, but I could easily do without them. My original P1D is a better light for daily use and I still carry it in my bag, although I'd sure like to have the additional runtime of a CREE if I could get it without losing what's useful in the P1D. Maybe a PID with a CREE, twist on-dim, twist further, bright, lots of flood, minimal hotspot.

The least useful is the new L2D CE I recently purchased. I know everyone's in love with this light, its brightness and throw, and when I received mine a few days ago I too was initially very impressed by those features. However, I was far less impressed by the aesthetics of it, it is, to be frank, just plain ugly, it's too long to carry anywhere except in a bag or in the holster and no use to me since I wear a suit.

The initial mode of ultra dim isn't well suited at all for such a large light (by today's standards). While it's certainly nice to have that mode, I always need to click to step up the brightness and half the time end up turning it off in the process (very annoying). And I hate the beam; in an effort to get maximum throw and a flawless spot, nearly all useful side spill has been sacrificed. I have to point it like a laser beam and then I get a useless blinding spot. It's a good throw light, that's for sure, but not at all useful for close work on any mode.

My sample of the L2D CE is also not at all friendly to battery types as I can only use NiMH. Others samples seem to fair better, but in mine a brand new pair of Lithium's will only run for perhaps a minute before the light starts blinking rapidly in Turbo mode (the only useful mode for a light this size). Alkalines also work, but not for long, Turbo mode kills them in 10-15 minutes though lesser modes continue to work for a time before gradually stepping down. Only NiMH batteries seem to perform properly.

So far I've purchased three Cree based lights and have two more on order. Now I'm beginning to wonder if the design of the lights and/or the optics available to build them with has dictated they will never be very useful except where intense hotspot and long throw are all that's desired; which, in my opinion, is not what most people usually need.

I can afford to buy any light that seems interesting, and so I end up owning a lot of very diverse lights from many manufactures (there's always another package showing up in the mail). Evolution now comes into play and some of them float to the top, others sink. So far two of my three new CREE lights have been consigned to the "Box of useless lights", better known as "The Box" by my wife (it's a very touchy subject, she doesn't understand this flashlight bit); and I'm pretty sure that those still on order (a Rexlight and cheap Cree – if I ever receive either of them – which seems doubtful) will also end up in "The Box".

I carried the L0D CE for a couple of weeks before the flickering drove me nuts, it hasn't yet made "The Box", but the PID CE and L2D CE both made it there after only a few hours; evolution at work.

As I leave the house today I find it curious that in my pocket is a second generation Arc AAA-P and in my bag is an original P1D, not my new P1D CE. The 2ndGen Arc AAA-P is a tough light to beat for daily use. It's tiny, wonderfully bright, has a fine flood, projects well enough in darkness and runs forever on a Lithium AAA. Evolution again, the 2ndGen Arc has consistently remained at the top of my list since the day I received it. There's lot of fine challengers, but the Arc is still hanging on to first place.

The original P1D is another example of a usable compromise between throw and spill. Not a light for an EDC, which I define as a "Pocket Light", it's too big for that, but it is a good "second EDC" when you can afford the carry space.

I'm going to really run against the flow here, I know. I mean -- look, its fun to show off our toys, the intense hotspot, long throw and multiple modes and all that, but in the end and above all else, a light must – must, be a broadly useful tool.

So manufactures, please, consider how someone will use your products. Go ahead and make a flashlight, but before you market it, send the sales staff on vacation and put it in your pocket for a few weeks and see how it fares in daily use. In fact, carry several from other manufactures as well and see which one you grab most of the time, and then think about what you're planning to bring to market. The L2D CE is a prime example of the sales department running the show and deciding on marketing features instead of usability.

I have a car that's build like some of the new flashlights, it's loaded with stuff I have little use for 99% of the time, if ever, but that I have to pay dearly to own and get in the way when I don't need them (usability). That car has a radio with a couple of dozen tiny buttons; maybe some of them actually do something useful, though I'm not too sure exactly what, most of them though I have little need for.

Now in comparison, take my 1956 Chevy Belair show car, it has a radio with exactly two knobs and five buttons. The two knobs are used for volume and tuning and are big and easy to find (I don't need reading glasses to see what they do), and that's all I need to operate it. It does have five buttons as well but I don't need them and they don't get in the way, I can use the radio for years without ever touching one of those buttons and it won't make the slightest difference.

Sorry – I know this will annoy a lot of people because it rubs against the grain, but let's see what you carry in your pocket after the novelty of the latest toy wears off; which light it is you reach for a dozen times a day.

Al
 
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Vickers

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The only Cree I have is a JetBeam CL-E, and I don't carry it as often as some other lights. The various modes were fun for about 3 days.

The light I carry every day is a MiniMag with a NiteIze 3LED drop-in and a frosted lens...perfect for the work I do (close-up electronic and hydraulic work).

All these freaking lights, and I fall back on the one I've had in one color or another for over 20 years...
 

AlexGT

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Does the L2D CE have longer throw or tighter spot than the P1D?

IMHO the dim should be first then medium, then high.
 

CM

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I think a lot of the problems with the Cree is not with the LED's themselves but the fact that manufacturers are "kludging" them into designs that probably are suitable for Luxeons. The Cree's have a totally different emission pattern and when you couple the Cree with the correct reflector (not a kludged one--sorry to be so repetitive) you will probably find that the Cree's just obsoletes the Luxeons.
 

tebore

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CM said:
I think a lot of the problems with the Cree is not with the LED's themselves but the fact that manufacturers are "kludging" them into designs that probably are suitable for Luxeons. The Cree's have a totally different emission pattern and when you couple the Cree with the correct reflector (not a kludged one--sorry to be so repetitive) you will probably find that the Cree's just obsoletes the Luxeons.

That's a good point. What you're upset with isn't Cree it's "Poor" engineering from the light companies using the LED.
 

EV_007

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Over there -- >
I agree with your points.

The LOD CE is brighter yes, but ringy as heck and the sidespill is much less than that of the LOP. I was expecting the floody artifact-free beam of the LOP to be carried over to the LOD CE. I understand the physical characteristics of the new CREE may contribute to the uneven, tight beam over the LUX versions. Even the reflector seems narrower than the LUX version of the LOP. I use the 10440 in the CE version for maximum output and not worry about the other shortcomings, however, I still carry the original LOP right next to it in my pocket for "real" everyday use.

I too am not a big fan of the flicker factor. But that's the price you pay for a compact, multi-level light powered by a small power source.

I too think the L2D CE tube is ugly looking compared to the standard older body.
 

Alteran

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I understand your problems with too little spill, though it doesn't really bother me. Maybe Crees are just better for throw than spill, though I would like a nice floody P1D-CE. On the other hand, PWM is what's making me reconsider my idea of getting a L0D-CE. It looks like a great little light, especially with about 10 minutes of extremely bright light on a 10440.
 

GaryF

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He did say "Cree based lights", and not the Cree itself. I agree to some extent, but I think with a little time there will be a bigger variety of offerings. The explosion of cree based lights has only started.
 

patycake57

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Aug 16, 2006
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Al_Havemann said:
So manufactures, please, consider how someone will use your products. Go ahead and make a flashlight, but before you market it, send the sales staff on vacation and put it in your pocket for a few weeks and see how it fares in daily use. In fact, carry several from other manufactures as well and see which one you grab most of the time, and then think about what you're planning to bring to market. The L2D CE is a prime example of the sales department running the show and deciding on marketing features instead of usability.

I think it's fine that you don't like the ringy beam, the UI for the L2D CE, etc. None of the points you are bringing up are particularly novel and are found in the reviews. There are many people who use lights with many many different preferences, just like yours. Find the right one for you (sounds like a Amilite T5 might be good for you). Criticize/request what you want from Fenix or anyone else. I just don't see any need to prejudice the discussion with terms like poor engineering or quotes like the above when their design choice (throw, multilevel light) does not meet your needs. Consider asking why you might be going against the grain? I don't think everyone on CPF is brainwashed.
 

2xTrinity

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If you still want the efficiency of your current Cree based lights, but with the same beam characteristics of your old lights, I'd recommend swapping the emitters in your older lights out for Seoul LEDs -- this will work especially well if you have an old light that you thought was "too dim", the Seoul versions will be double the brightness with the same runtime and similar beam pattern. Those will give you even more lumens than the present Cree LEDs, but in a beam pattern that will work in the old reflectors/optics. Also, using a Seoul in an emitter designed for a Cree (may require some adjusting of the position of the reflector, such as a spacer, or sanding down part of the reflector), will usually result in a smooth floody beam that gradually transitions from a bright center region.

I believe a few on here have done this swap on the Fenix lights with good results. As of now the only Fenix light that I own is the L0D CE and I'm quite happy with that one -- I agree that the pulse width modulation is irritating, especially on low, but I don't mind it as much on primary. Most of the time I use low though, it's because I'm reading something, or working up close -- If I'm not moving the flashlight around, I dn't get the "strobe effect" and don't mind the flickering. However, I understand that th ereason for this is that the light is just too small to fit the components that would be needed to minimize the flickering (some smoothing capacitors might help, but good luck finding room to add them in).

The biggest disadvantage I've seen from the Seouls is that of the ones I've been able to get my hands on in group buys or on websites like Dealextreme, they don't render color as well as the readily available Cree LEDs -- most of the Seoul look like a pale, cool white, while the Crees look like somewhat warmer with a slight yellow/greenish tint -- makes skin, and things like plants/grass look a lot more natural.
 
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greenstuffs

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All cree lights you have are from Fenix you should try other manufacturers, i had a MK2x and had very nice beam of course the UI was too crazy. My PD XR19 is pretty nice. I'm sure you'll love surefire crees. You can't judge the performance from just 1 manufacturer specially one like Fenix known for having beam issues.
 

PhantomPhoton

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Sounds to me that you just don't like the new Fenix lights. (It's okay I don't either, that is why I haven't purchased any of them.) Try a new brand :p
 

suvdave

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I agree with much of what you say, but also realize that people have many different needs for their flashlights, so one size will never fit all. I have a LiteFlux LF2 on order for my small AAA EDC. I'm not sure how floody the beam will be, but the programmability of it lets anyone customize it to their own needs and the high frequency PWM should eliminate any flickering.
 

Oddjob

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I have been putting diffusing film on the lenses of my lights recently. I find it creates more useable flood, eliminates rings and artifacts and for me makes the beams much more useful. I know McGizmo is developing a Cree based flashlight that produces an all flood beam. The Cree emitter is well suited to flood due to its radiation pattern. This may be a Cree based light you might like.
 

Al_Havemann

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patycake57 said:
I think it's fine that you don't like the ringy beam, the UI for the L2D CE, etc. None of the points you are bringing up are particularly novel and are found in the reviews. There are many people who use lights with many many different preferences, just like yours. Find the right one for you (sounds like a Amilite T5 might be good for you). Criticize/request what you want from Fenix or anyone else. I just don't see any need to prejudice the discussion with terms like poor engineering or quotes like the above when their design choice (throw, multilevel light) does not meet your needs. Consider asking why you might be going against the grain? I don't think everyone on CPF is brainwashed.

Please!,
First, you've misquoted me. I said nothing at all about a ringy beam, at all; in fact I am usually indifferent about beam quality in that respect. My comment had to do with an intense hotspot, side spill and the ratio between them essentially making the light unusable for close work and that I didn't like the physical design. My post wasn't particularly directed at Fenix, only that those are the only CREE lights I own so far. Note that the L0P CE retains a place in my collection despite the fact that I do not like the flickering, that's a personal preference.

About my attempt to "prejudice" this discussion. You like a light with many features, so do I, as long as they do not get in the way. But don't other people dislike certain products?. Has there never been an unfavorable post? Don't other people criticize products from time to time?. Should every post only be a favorable post? When did the Fenix L2D CE achieve such a lofty status that it is immune from any but favorable comment? My comments were directed to the topic of CREE based lights, not Fenix. Re-read my post, I carry a Fenix P1D daily; I like and retain the P1D, L0P CE and a L0P-SE.

I said nothing at all about "poor engineering". All of the Fenix lights are superbly engineered; my comment had to do with marketing decisions and usability in daily operation. I quite agree that there are hobbyists that like a multitude of features, but features need to be engineered in such a way as to not interfere with operation.

There are many lights on the market; all compete at some point on features and price. If everyone liked the exact same light and there was never an unfavorable comment, there would be no competition and no choice.

Al
 

carrot

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This is why my favorite new generation light is my McLux PD-S with mizer. Output is no more than 60 lumens but it runs for about three hours on a single 123. I have all the Fenix Crees and while I do carry them from time to time, the lights I find a real joy to use are my most expensive ones -- the Surefire A2 and PD-S, for example. Not because they are expensive, no, but because they have better thought-out light output levels. And of course, it's no secret that I dislike multimode UI, though the L*D series is less annoying than the previous generation (P1D).

Personally, I think ultra-powerful Cree lights are great! They're fun to play with and definitely blow away the unenlightened. But they have their place, and it's time more manufacturers realize that high output is not always the way to go.

The original Fenix L1P is still useful... so why not make a L1P-XR with extended runtime using a Cree, for instance? Why not upgrade lights with Cree to extend runtime rather than making them 30-minute powerhouses? Surefire realizes this with the E1L and E2L, and are bumping up the output marginally while extending the runtime by a LOT. The new L5 won't just be brighter, it'll have twice, maybe three times the runtime of the original LuxV model. Again, Surefire shows why they are at the top of the food chain with the thought they put into their lights.
 

greenstuffs

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Well surefire and other reputable manufacturers catter the real need unlike other manufacturers who are just there to make a quick buck.
Fenix do make great lights however as of currently they are not what they supposed to be and don't live up to the hype of older Fenix's lights. It is always known to marketing that the more lumens the better and the more throw the better thus stating emitter lumens instead of OTF lumens, i'm still sure every unenlightened has to go through this stage and realize that there are only so much light you can use at close range and these pocket are not meant to be light swords.
Probably the miss interpretation of the market from the chinese manufacturers is what caused it. By building a pocket rocket out of a mini reflector making it a hybrid that don't do any good in neither world.
I have a PD Mizer and is great light and suits 99% of my needs. I know it won't out throw my M6 but 1 light does not fit all needs.


carrot said:
This is why my favorite new generation light is my McLux PD-S with mizer. Output is no more than 60 lumens but it runs for about three hours on a single 123. I have all the Fenix Crees and while I do carry them from time to time, the lights I find a real joy to use are my most expensive ones -- the Surefire A2 and PD-S, for example. Not because they are expensive, no, but because they have better thought-out light output levels. And of course, it's no secret that I dislike multimode UI, though the L*D series is less annoying than the previous generation (P1D).

Personally, I think ultra-powerful Cree lights are great! They're fun to play with and definitely blow away the unenlightened. But they have their place, and it's time more manufacturers realize that high output is not always the way to go.

The original Fenix L1P is still useful... so why not make a L1P-XR with extended runtime using a Cree, for instance? Why not upgrade lights with Cree to extend runtime rather than making them 30-minute powerhouses? Surefire realizes this with the E1L and E2L, and are bumping up the output marginally while extending the runtime by a LOT. The new L5 won't just be brighter, it'll have twice, maybe three times the runtime of the original LuxV model. Again, Surefire shows why they are at the top of the food chain with the thought they put into their lights.
 
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