ARC-N

Hi,

Would anybody think that a Arc-N light would be a good idea or am I just nuts?

Unfortunatly, the threads on the Arc-AAA are just a little too small to allow a N cell to fit so a different head would be needed. An adapter would make it as long as an Arc-AAA so that would be dumb.

Our machinist suggested this last week too. He thought it would be a good way to make a cheaper light for people who want a more affordable option.

I asked him, "so, have to seen how much the N cells cost at your local store?". He's like, "yeah, well it would made the flashlight cheaper initially".

If I sold something like that, I would feel guilty. I might even have to tell people, hey we lowered the price of this light to appeal to people who buy on price, but were sorry your going to end spending more money in the long run on these weird batteries. But hey, we don't care because at least we got your money first.

Then there's the people who say, "oh but you can buy x battery online and save a bundle". Ok, if your heart is set on using that battery, I can't stop you. I do think a light should be smart enough that it doesn't force it's owner to go scrambling all over the place looking for weird batteries at a good price.

Oh, there's a racket. Make a light with a weird battery that I get for cheap because I bought a zillion of them in china. Sell the light for $10-15 making a mint because the light is so cheap to make. Put some big warranty on the flashlight knowing people aren't going to be using it a year from now anyways because they lost it, got tired of looking for batteries, its so cheap it's not worth the postage and hassle to mail it back, etc. But what do I care, I made 300% on the light and our resellers bought it for %50 discount, so they love me too.

Hmm. Nah. I think I will make lights that don't screw with my karma.

Anyways...



Peter Gransee

Hi Peter,

I can't see it being much (if any) cheaper than the Arc-AAA. Only 1/2" less bar stock. Same LED, same electronics, same number of machining steps. I wouldn't care if the batteries are more expensive than AAA's. I am just ththinking it would be the same length as a key instead of 1/2" longer.

If it was the same price as the AAA, I would buy one and actually put it on my key ring in addition to the AAA which is on my Leatherman sheath.

.......but I would still rather have an Arc-AA with 3 LEDs and 2 or more brightness levels.

If it is cheaper to make but sells at the same price as an Arc-AAA, I won't tell. I wouldn't mind, I'd still buy one. I think the N cell is probably the smallest, cheapest cell that would drive a single LED at full rating with a DC-DC. Sure better than 3 button cells. The only thing else that I can think of is the 12V wireless remote batteries with a step down converter.

I'm still lusting after an ARC AAA - Titanium.

Anyhow, Peter, you're thinking too much. If I have a space critical application, or someone is just anal to have a small, amazing light on their keychain, the battery cost is really insignificant.

Look at it this way, Peter. The Arc isn't Cheap to buy, really. But it uses a cheap battery.

You're mind-reading your customers. You're really saying, since YOU wouldn't buy it, they shouldn't either.

Leave it to the market.

(Altho I think the ARC AAA is perfect, except if it was in Titanium...)

My 2 cents. Not an attack, by any means, I have the utmost respect.

And Peter: Don't read below this line:

------

Guys, STOP GIVING HIM ideas until he's throughputting enuff ARC LE's and LS's to keep us all happy... He's got enuff to do!

--Phil

(Who would really like an ARC AAAA! Man! That would be THIN!)

(Shutting up now.)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PhilAlex:
I'm still lusting after an ARC AAA - Titanium. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phil, my man! Yes to the titanium! I'm a big fan of that stuff, and I'd have to sign up for 3 or 4 of those jewels.

(...and then, of course, set up my benchtop titanium anodizing in the basement and play with pretty colors... )

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Anyhow, Peter, you're thinking too much. If I have a space critical application, or someone is just anal to have a small, amazing light .)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phil, please don't use the terms "anal", "critical", and "space" in the same sentence like that. That first time, um, "exam" is too recent and fresh in my mind. Double

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ron Schroeder:
Hi Peter,

I can't see it being much (if any) cheaper than the Arc-AAA. Only 1/2" less bar stock. Same LED, same electronics, same number of machining steps. I wouldn't care if the batteries are more expensive than AAA's. I am just ththinking it would be the same length as a key instead of 1/2" longer.

If it was the same price as the AAA, I would buy one and actually put it on my key ring in addition to the AAA which is on my Leatherman sheath.

.......but I would still rather have an Arc-AA with 3 LEDs and 2 or more brightness levels.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


OK, I am back! I meant to follow up on this sooner but was busy.

What the machinist was suggesting was making the pack longer and the head dumber. 3 N cells, a resistor and an LED basically. The idea was to keep the cost down by nixing the converter/regulator board. I told him politely (at least I hope I was polite), that there are already flashlights like that on the market and further, it is not the Arc way.

What you where suggesting was keeping the circuit but changing the cell from an AAA to an N. I think your point was that is would be smaller. Smaller is definately better. I just can't get past the fact that the N cells are so much more expensive and harder to find.

If we want to go the route of, "small as possible, battery cost is not a big issue", we might as well use a lithium. They cost just a little more and make the light even smaller.

Now a NiMH "N" cell is more intriguing. The cost issue is mitigated by the fact the cell is reusable. The downside is the unit would be dimmer and you would have to charge the battery more often than you change out your AAA alkaline. So there is a convienence issue. But other than that, the case is not as strong against the N cell when rechargables are used. The customer would have the choice of course.

Right now, I like the ubiquity of the AAA cell. They are everywhere. And that goes a long way on keeping you out of the dark.

True, I wish they where smaller. But, everything is a trade.

Anywho. I hope I am always open to suggestions. And Ron, your's got me thinking.

Peter Gransee

I just can't see much point in an N cell ARC- if size is that critical, just get a Photon.

Peter,

Forgive me if I come across rudely, but there is a very large market out there for lower cost, lower quality products. Witness the success of Wal-Mart and Mag-Light Most people consider flashlights to be disposable goods. They are only familiar with the kind you buy at Wal-Mart or Target. The general population doesn't have the experience or information base to appreciate an Arc or a SureFire (unlike us semi-obsessed CPFers). They respond to sticker price at the point of purchase, not total cost of ownership over the life of the light (or just about any product for that matter). They don't expect a 10 year warranty, and probably will lose the paperwork as you said. When the batteries die, they'll replace them if they are easy to find, or toss the light if they are not. Disposable again is the key word. I would guesstimate the cut-off price for disposable flashlights to be around $20. In other words, for under $20, its not worth getting upset over if I lose it. People are price sensitive. Witness the demand for the SLS's. Forgive me for predicting this, but I'm going to guess you sell a lot more SLS's than you expected to.

I love your products and am the proud owner of a CPF edition Arc-AAA. My other Arc-AAA was given to a friend going on a 3 month round-the-world trip, specifically because I knew it would be indestructible and the battery would be easy to replace. However, I am not convinced that the high-quality flashlight market is large enough to sustain your business plan. You just don't have those Mercedes type profit margins to play with.

Consider your "China" example. A $19.95 overdriven baton light with a one-year warranty and the right marketing might capture that part of the market that has no interest in the total-cost-of-ownership of the Arc-AAA or the luxurious $170 Arc LS with three swappable bodies. They just want a cheap reliable small light that they can throw in the glove box; that they can count on to come on when they click the button or turn the head. So right now they're buying Mag AA's or Mag solitaire's. Currently, Arc has nothing that really competes in this niche.

I understand that a cheaper, compromised flashlight is not the "Arc" way, and I appreciate that and respect it. However, there is nothing stopping you from brand-differentiating, vis-a-vis Lexus vs Toyota. Perhaps two companys: "Arc Flashlights" and "Not-So-Arc Flashlights". Arc can continue on the luxury track, while Not-So-Arc goes after the Mag-AA/Wal-Mart checkout line market. The 300% profits from the Not-So-Arc line can be your cash cow to fuel your relentless pursuit of perfection in the Arc line. Might I suggest a Titanium 5V Luxeon Arc LS to start with

Heck, if you feel really bad, you could put an extra set of N-cells in the Not-So-Arc packaging labelled "Spare batteries included! Limited time offer!".


Sorry, but my old MBA just kicked in. Would you believe I have friends that charge $1000 per day for BS like this?

Example

I'm not trying to pick on TheLedLight.com. In fact, I like the fact you can switch out the N-cells for AAA's. Anyone tried one of these, BTW?

Best regards,
tej

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tej:


Example

I'm not trying to pick on TheLedLight.com. In fact, I like the fact you can switch out the N-cells for AAA's. Anyone tried one of these, BTW?

Best regards,
tej<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have one of these lights but with 3 LEDs, uses 3 N cells with I substitute for 2AAA, works great.

LED

I think the AAA is about the right size. Any smaller we would have a hard time handling it.

From some pictures on the web, it looks like the very early edition of the Arc-AAA has slightly larger threads.

Does onybody have one that they can check if an "N" cell will fit in the threads of the body?

Thanks

I have and ARC AAA with the flat o-ring. A N battery will not go past the threads.

I'd have to chip in and agree - the length of the N cells is nice and would make for a shorter Arc, but the extra girth of an N cell would mean a slighly thicker flashlight too. New heads might be needed too if you wanted to match the N-cell bodies.

The Arc AAA has elegant dimensions, IMO - slim, easily pocketed and very nice to handle (especially when held like a pen or pencil). Shorter flashlights actually seem clumsier, even for someone with relatively smaller asian hands like mine. The shorter life of an N cell puts me off just a little too.

And when(if?) the Energizer Lithium AAA's finally do become available, I'd have lost almost any reason NOT to stick with the AAA format.

My 2 cents....