Fenix LOD CE vs. E1 regulation & runtime

Trying to figure out what to spend a lot of money on to save a little ($15 PayPal refund expires tonight!) I am looking on flashlightreviews.com at the runtime and output curve of the LOD CE. Then I looked at the old review of the E1, and it refreshed my memory of why I chose the E1. The output curve of the E1 is ruler flat at maximum output for 1h 10m using alkalines. Although I use almost exclusively NiMH cells, occasionally I use alkalines, and in these cases good regulation is a very, very big consideration for me. Then I looked at the LOD CE runtimes and output curves using alkalines. The LOD CE output curve on alkalines drops like a rock from the get-go, and runtime on high is pathetic: 18 minutes to 50% output, and dead in another 10 minutes? According to the measurements, the throw of the E1 is about the same as the LOD CE on medium. Whereas the E1 will maintain that brightness for 1h 10m, the LOD CE on medium just goes straight downhill from there. Yeah, the LOD CE is hella brighter on high initially, but if anyone runs the LOD CE on alkalines, the E1 is going to be brighter a lot longer on alkalines once the LOD CE begins to drop right out of the gates, and the E1 doesn't have the PWM flicker that the LOD CE is reported to have on medium and low.

Why would Fenix make two lights using basically the same package, one excellently regulated for $22, and the other esentially not regulated for twice the price?

The key for me was 50% of what? Steady light from a Nichia is nothing like 10 minutes of bright light from the Cree. I can always swap out an alkaline but if you actually need the bright light, the E1 can't help you.

Keep in mind that after the LOD-CE running on alkalines has hit 50% on medium, it's total output is is about the same as E1 with a new alkaline.

I say, get the LOD-CE and skip the alkalines, go straight to NiMH cells.

adnj said:

The key for me was 50% of what? Steady light from a Nichia is nothing like 10 minutes of bright light from the Cree. I can always swap out an alkaline but if you actually need the bright light, the E1 can't help you.

Keep in mind that after the LOD-CE running on alkalines has hit 50% on medium, it's total output is is about the same as E1 with a new alkaline.

I say, get the LOD-CE and skip the alkalines, go straight to NiMH cells.

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Points well taken, especially if I need really bright, the LOD CE will be there, and the E1 won't. And the blue tint of the E1 won't be missed! But, those do not address my point of contention. The big letdown for me is, Fenix can make an E1 with rock-steady regulation, then puts out an almost identical package with Cree, but with essentially no regulation. Yes, the overall output (including spill) of the LOD CE on alkies at 50% output is about equal to the E1's overall output (anywhere along it's ruler-flat output, I might point out). But in terms of throw, the E1 throws 132 lux for 1h 10m, whereas the LOD CE throw on medium starts at 138 lux but dives like a rock thereafter. The fact that I can just click the LOD CE into high mode and stomp the E1 is not the point. The question is why could not/would not Fenix include excellent regulation in the LOD CE, when they demonstrated their ability to offer such in the E1 at half the price?

If the Medium level is what you want, the alkalines are fine. The chemistry of the AAA worsens the drop. The LOD-CE was really not designed for maximum performance while being fed alkalines. The circuit clearly favors more exotic chemistries or even LIR batteries; something that the E1 can't do. A great relacement for a MM Solitaire is the E1. A pocketable, very versatile light is the LOD-CE and that's why I carry one.

IMO The designs are quite a bit different and have only size in common. Besides, I still have about 40 Duracell AAA's to burn-up in my desk drawer.

The combination of regulation and output was what decided me on the the E1 over the L0 series. If I need high output, I'll use my P1D CE.

Personally, I'd love to see a 2-level version of the E1, maybe with a slightly brighter high, and a low a little dimmer than the E0. Maybe they could do a Cree or Seoul version, but tuned for runtime and flood instead of high output.

The The LOD-CE outruns the E1 when set to low and Medium settings, at high the E1 wins

I'm pretty sure you are talking about the E0, the E1 only runs regulated for about an hour.

adnj said:

If the Medium level is what you want, the alkalines are fine. The chemistry of the AAA worsens the drop.

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I guess I'm just not connecting. The chemistry of a AAA alkaline only worsens the LOD CE's output drop, not the E1's. LOD CE on medium starts out with the same throw as the E1, but the E1 stays ruler-flat for 1h 10m, whereas the LOD CE begins dropping like a rock from the get-go. It's not the output of the LOD CE that bothers me, it's the lack of regulation compared to it's kissin' cousin E1. I guess people are deeply in the Cree honeymoon phase with the LOD CE, too mesmerized by it's maximum output for it's size to yet begin to question other areas of it's design. But I want one anyway!

I guess I'm just not connecting. The chemistry of a AAA alkaline only worsens the LOD CE's output drop, not the E1's. LOD CE on medium starts out with the same throw as the E1, but the E1 stays ruler-flat for 1h 10m, whereas the LOD CE begins dropping like a rock from the get-go. It's not the output of the LOD CE that bothers me, it's the lack of regulation compared to it's kissin' cousin E1. I guess people are deeply in the Cree honeymoon phase with the LOD CE, too mesmerized by it's maximum output for it's size to yet begin to question other areas of it's design. But I want one anyway!

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Yep, you pretty much called it... right now I've been running 10440s on the L0D CE, and for about 10 minutes they can compete with any LED flashlight of mine. I like to have that sort of lumen output on my keychain at all times, for burst, in order to do things like look for small dropped items with a keychain that is readily at hand (I remember incidents in the past trying to find peoples' lost keys at the beach with nothing but cell phone backlights and photons...)

The intermediate levels are still a massive amount of light, yet give decent runtime -- more than I expect to ever use in a single day, as for extended use I'm likely to bring (or retrieve) a regular flashlight. Any day that I use the cell for more than just a moment or two, I switch the cell for a fresh one -- that way I'll keep from deep cycling them (I abuse the cells enough by driving them at greater than recommended current in "high" mode...)

2xTrinity said:

Yep, you pretty much called it... right now I've been running 10440s on the L0D CE, and for about 10 minutes they can compete with any LED flashlight of mine. I like to have that sort of lumen output on my keychain at all times, for burst, in order to do things like look for small dropped items with a keychain that is readily at hand (I remember incidents in the past trying to find peoples' lost keys at the beach with nothing but cell phone backlights and photons...)

The intermediate levels are still a massive amount of light, yet give decent runtime -- more than I expect to ever use in a single day, as for extended use I'm likely to bring (or retrieve) a regular flashlight. Any day that I use the cell for more than just a moment or two, I switch the cell for a fresh one -- that way I'll keep from deep cycling them (I abuse the cells enough by driving them at greater than recommended current in "high" mode...)

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I do the exact same thing with my L0Dce....Have 4 10440's and 2 chargers, one at work and one at home. Any substantual use at all , I swap out for a fresh 10440. My L0Dce is allways crankin the max, and I love it. This little light has wowed more people, and been more usefull than my other lights combined. I'm getting a second, just in case Fenix does something stupid like discontinue or change it. Dont think twice to buy an L0Dce, and use the 10440's in it, it rocks period. Mine has seen nothing but the lithiums for a few months now and no problems. I even accidently left it burn on high for more than 20 minutes, with no ill effects. It was warm not hot, and still had plenty of light left in it.

OK, OK, I actually did just receive my LOD-CE from Fenix-Store! Aside from the long scratch on the reflector, it is just cute enough to warrant it's cost, minus PayPal's $15 refund! Although I admit it is nice to have three light levels, the PWM is bothersome. But hey, man, the PWM gives hours and hours on low, so what the heck. And strobe should be really fun to use while blasting through the dark tunnel on the Giant Dipper roller coaster at the Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk this summer! But what's with the S .......... .................O.................................S? Was it designed to be seen by someone who doesn't know Morse code and has to take the time to look each letter up in a book? Man, it is slow! It should be twice as fast.

Originally Posted by Turbo DV8: ...runtime on high is pathetic: 18 minutes to 50% output, and dead in another 10 minutes?

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:huh2:
From where are you getting these data about runtimes? Here's the link to Flashlight reviews on the LOD-CE runtimes: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_l0dce.htm. He shows the graphs done by Chevrofreak. The runtime of the LOD-CE on high using a Sanyo 900mah NiMH battery shows a modest decline in output over the first 15 minutes then output stabilizes, declining only slightly until about 55 minutes when it drops precipitously. He gets about 58 minutes on high to about 50% of original output. Further, if you use a Lithium primary you get greater light output and about 83 minutes to 50% light. It is ONLY when one uses a Duracell alkaline battery that you get extremely rapid light deline to about 50% output in 18 mins. The nearly an hour on high corresponds to my own test of my LOD-CE when I first received it.

Further, on medium output (which is quite useful for many applications) on the NiMH battery, he gets 2 hrs 54 mins to 50% output. I hope the posters here will check the runtimes graphs posted on this site. This is an excellent little flashlight and, as I understand it, a real improvement on earlier versions.

Of course, the graphs are not for 10440 batteries, which are not recommended by Fenix and have been quite controversial on Candlepower Forums. All runtime graphs will be different if 10440s are used.

Turbo DV8 said:

I guess I'm just not connecting. The chemistry of a AAA alkaline only worsens the LOD CE's output drop, not the E1's. LOD CE on medium starts out with the same throw as the E1, but the E1 stays ruler-flat for 1h 10m, whereas the LOD CE begins dropping like a rock from the get-go. It's not the output of the LOD CE that bothers me, it's the lack of regulation compared to it's kissin' cousin E1. I guess people are deeply in the Cree honeymoon phase with the LOD CE, too mesmerized by it's maximum output for it's size to yet begin to question other areas of it's design. But I want one anyway!

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The LOD CE is fairly well regulated on NiMh and Lithiums. The E1 is designed to be a decent performer on Alkalines with modest output. The LOD CE is obviously not desgined for a diet of alkalines and has awesome output.
If you like the E1 it is still available. Why would they introduce two lights the same size that do the same thing? IMO Fenix hit the nail on the head with the LOD CE.

Agreed here too. With an L92, this little thing is a terrific EDC. Alkalines will work in a pinch, but the performance really shines (pun intended) with an Energizer E2.

The E1 has a very ringy beam and small hotspot. The L0D-CE has a hot spot that is 10X bigger. and the spill light is much brighter. At short to medium distances the bigger hotspot and brighter spill is more usefol. If you really need throw, time to get a BIGGER light.

HarveyRich said:

:huh2:
From where are you getting these data about runtimes? Here's the link to Flashlight reviews on the LOD-CE runtimes: http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/fenix_l0dce.htm. He shows the graphs done by Chevrofreak.

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Those are the exact graphs I was referring to, and in my original post I did qualify "pathetic" by specifying alkalines. My point was, again, (sigh) that if Fenix could make the E1 well regulated, they could have just as easily made the LOD-CE well regulated, but they didn't, that's all.

Turbo DV8: You are absolutely right that you refer to Alkalines, but you also mention that you normally use rechargable NiMHs. I would assume these are only for emergencies, so the short run time shouldn't really mean that much, right? I've not used alkalines yet. Why do that when you can use Eneloops, which keep their charge well and have the recharging and energy depletion characteristics of all NiMH batteries? So the runtimes of the LOD (on NiMH) would be almost comparable to what you mention for the E1, but with much higher light output.

Could they have regulated this better--I'd agree with you--most probably? What would the trade off have been? I suspect there might be some light output trade off. The runtimes do appear regulated, although not perfectly flat--on Lithiums and NiMHs. IMHO, a run time to 50% of nearly an hour on high and nearly 3 hr on medium is quite good.

HarveyRich said:

Turbo DV8: Could they have regulated this better--I'd agree with you--most probably? What would the trade off have been? I suspect there might be some light output trade off. The runtimes do appear regulated, although not perfectly flat--on Lithiums and NiMHs. IMHO, a run time to 50% of nearly an hour on high and nearly 3 hr on medium is quite good.

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Maybe they did away with the E1's regulation to make room for the multi-output circuitry? The LOD-CE is already just a teensy-weensy bit longer than the E1. I agree that people should look at the reviews and runtime charts on flashlightreviews.com. Looking at the LOD-CE output curve, it may not look too bad except for alkalines on high... that is until you compare it's output curve on medium and low to that of the E1, then you can easily see where Fenix cut a corner. The only reason the output curve of the LOD-CE on medium (and especially low, which a AAA alkaline should easily support) drops the way it does, is because it is poorly regulated. Sure, using NiMH gives the appearance of regulation, but so it would with any light. If the LOD-CE were regulated as the E1, then it's output would be ruler-flat for a good while regardless of alkaline, NiMH or Lithium.

With the LOD-CE you get Cree and multi-mode outputs (at least one dubious?). For 2.5x the price of a regulated E1's $18 price, could they have not put similar regulation in the LOD-CE? If they can put excellent regulation in an $18 E1, the regulation could not have cost very much at all to implement.

But in any case, you ain't getting my LOD-CE from me, no way, no how! Now if we could just persuade Doug at flashlightreviews.com to come back out of semi-retirement. If there was ever a time in the evolution of LED lights that we needed his expertise, this is it!

A regulation circuit can only do so much. It is still bound by the discharge curve of a given cell. I suspect the E1 draws a good bit less amperage atleast when considering the power source is a mere AAA.
Sure the E1 has good flat regulation but the output is pathetic compared to the LOD CE. Could the regulation have been better with a simple one or two level output system? Maybe. But I really don't care the LOD CE is what it is and I like it. I don't know how efficient the little 0.5w Rigel LED in the E1 is. Maybe they could just upgrade it to a cree at the same drive level? I'm not sure how much would be gained.

I am burning up a pile of AAA Duracells with my LOD-CE and I honestly don't really know when the battery is running low. I don't notice any PWM flicker either. I almost always use the first mode (medium) because it seems to be just right. But if you pop in a 10400, it's a whole different light.

I agree with you, DV8. There could have been better regulation with alkalines but I'm just not sure, that in my world, it matters much. Versatility is what I valued in this particular light. That it does very well.