Nimh in Arc aaa

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Darell

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To the naked eye (the most sophisticated light measurement device I own) the Arc is certainly brighter with Alks than with NiMHs. The step-up can only do so much, and it just works with what it's got. The Arc is not a 100% regulated light like the Opalec Newbeam mod. As voltage drops, so does the output.
 

Darell

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Negative. They are "semi-regulated." They fall off slower than non-regulated lights, but they still fall off every minute they're run. The only fully regulated product on the market that I'm aware of is the Opalec Newbeam. Soon the SF products with full regulation should be out as well.
 
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**DONOTDELETE**

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My LS seems pretty well regulated.I had never gotten any of my AAAs or my LS into moon mode until yesterday.I was dissecting my broken washing machine.The LS was bright,then about 30 seconds later it was dim enough to look into the LED.I left it on for a couple of hours to see how long it would last dim,but I got bored and put a new 123 in it.It was pretty cool to see the regulator in action.
 
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**DONOTDELETE**

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I'm not sure exactly what it means, but didn't Gransee say the next generation of LS's will be current regulated instead of voltage regulated, like the last generation is? Would this mean a more constant light output? Does this mean the light falls off less receiving the same amperage, while the voltage drops? Or is the amperage increased as the voltage drops?
If so why doesn't the same thing happen in voltage regulation?
(feel free to point me to the string I missed that discussed this already
cool.gif
)
 

Darell

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Actually, when it dims like that, you're seeing the regulator *out* of action
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When it dumps into moon mode, you're at the point where the batteries just can't keep up, so the regulator says "OK - you batteries are on your own now. Good luck making *this* user happy for much longer."

Yes, I guess you could call "semi-regulated" lights "pretty well regulated" but I'd still like to see more lights that produce totally flat output, now that I've seen one in action. I agree that some regulation is better than none though...
 

Gransee

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Absolutely. All of our lights are voltage regulated at this point. Also, the regulation is partial, not full.

Why? Pull up a chair...

If the LED is directly driven by the battery, you have a discharge curve that starts steep and gradually levels out and goes on at a dim level for a long time.

A regulator does not give you something for nothing of course, it simply manages what you have. Take the above discharge curve and chop off some of the top part and use it to beef up some of the bottom. Now the light is not as bright in the first part and not as dim in the second part.

Now for this to happen, the regulator must have a high enough input voltage to work. Typically, this is ~.5volts above where you want to be.

The way to do this is to increase the voltage of the battery by using more cells or to use a step-up converter to multiply the voltage at the price of current.

Typical efficiency for a converter is about 80%. Some are better some are worse, 80% is typical.

What some people miss is that you also have a voltage multiplier limit for a given input/output current and circuit. Several factors determine this, which I won't go into here. But remember that for a given converter, it can only multiply the input voltage so much before the output levels off. If that multiplication level is already reached and you drop the input level further, the output must drop too.

Don't forget there is this limit. There is a lot of hardworking converter designs out there. Usally, the battery is what whips the converter.

For example, you got this spanky converter that can provide a flat 3.2volt output even as the input drops to less than 1 volt. The catch is that at 1 volt input, the converter is asking for 2amps from the battery. This is not the converter's problem, this the law of physics (and supply/demand!). Whereas, batteries are used to providing less current as their voltage drops (or less voltage as the load current increases).

So you can have a great converter but if the battery poops out, the light is going to dim. How quickly is dims after it falls out of regulation is determined by many factors.

So, for a given converter efficiency, multiplier and battery, you will have a ideal maximum voltage for a given load. Without a regulator, this will create a discharge curve that looks just like an LED being directly driven. It dims steeply at first and then levels off for the long haul.

How do you get a flat output curve? Use a regulator. But just throwing in a regulator doesn't make the our drooping curve flat. We have to keep the regulator under the "ideal maximum voltage" mention above. At least .5volts below the above curve the whole time. If we track that curve, then our "regulated" output will match the unregulated output but just dimmer and slightly elongated because of the smaller load.

So I ask again! How do we get a flat discharge curve? Just like I said before, chop off the top and add it to the bottom. Essentially, make the light dimmer for the first hour (for example) and brighter for the second hour to blend them all together to make a flatter curve. Like a jogger pacing themselves. The sprinter will pass them initially, but while the sprinter walks the remaining distance, the jogger passes them going faster. Slow and steady wins the race, blah blah.

But we want our lights to be brighter right? You can't have it both ways all the time. Sometimes the battery is simply too small. Add to that an often overlooked fact: most flashlight usage occurs in bursts, not long protacted run times like you see on your favorite review site (no offense, we do learn somethine from those graphs). A partially regulated light delivers brighter usage each time compared to a completely regulated light. Consistancy is good, brighter is better. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Now, which is better over the different forms of regulation (either partial or full), voltage regulated or current regulated? Depends on the task, both have advantages. Voltage regulated is usally more compact and works with the batteries better to squeeze more light out of them. Current regulated is more consistant and compensates for the wide variations in Vf between LEDs. Current regulation is harder on a battery and will produce slightly less lumens per battery change, but it is more consistant. Another current regulation adds is thermal protection. This is essential in the higher power LEDs.

For the Arc-AAA, voltage regulation works best. It is the most compact way we could find to provide some regulation. Also, it is easy on the battery and ideal as a back up light. The thermal protection is not needed because of large die to housing ratio (read: less heat per in2).

For the LS, current regulation is ideal because of the heat management issues. Also, the light is intended to be a primary light which means it is used for longer durations and it is ok if it is less efficient. Especially if it means a more consistant output is provided since spares (lights and batteries) are by the nature of the mission, more likely to be had (compared to a key chain light which is usally an emergency type of light).

In both cases, partial regulation is preferred (and actually designed in by a novel means) to optomize for maximum light per typical task length. The light should actually throttle back for extended use to keep from overheating and to increase efficiency.

Currently <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , the LS is voltage regulated. This was because we just had not found a small enough current regulator to fit in the light.

When some people look at a light with a very flat regulation, they see perfection. I see a package that is holding something back for the 5 minutes I need it to perform a task.

There is a happy medium though.

With our new circuits, we have much higher multiplier levels. This gives us the ability to drive the LED at full power consistantly for a decent amount of time. We could make them even brighter, but the task length would shorten and efficiency drop off rapidly. We actually have a formula for the target task length over a given percentage of the battery life. The trick is to meet the target first and then squeeze as much efficiency out as possible. Efficiency also includes the "Light Density" quotient, which I talked about earlier.

Basically, we makes lights for you that are brighter, smaller and more efficient for the target task.

Now, you have the Arc regulation philsophy 101.

Peter Gransee
 

Darell

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Hmmm. And for all this time I thought you really understood this regulation stuff, Peter.
shocked.gif


The part I like best is the insertion of the second yellow smiley. When will we currently see him pay off?

Super information as always, Peter.

I can't explain why I get all tingly when I know my light is 100% regulated, but I do. That said, you *know* I own far more Arc products than any other...
 

Michael

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I 've done a search on this topic in several forums but I could find no real-world comparison--with a light meter--between nimh and alkaline performance in an Arc aaa. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the step-up converter should place an increased demand for higher current from the battery. I have heard that nimhs tend to perform better than alkalines in high drain (current?) devices, so that would suggest that a regulated Arc aaa should actually be brighter over a longer period with a nimh battery. However, the official line on the Arc website is that the light will be slightly dimmer with rechargables, citing the voltage difference (1.2V versus 1.5V). Does anybody have any real data on this? I would do it, but I don't have the gear.
 

LEDagent

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WOW...i'm awe struck by the wealth of information on this single page. Hey Peter, why not just cut and paste this to your webpage? This would make a great addition to your FAQ or company history/description.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Basically, we makes lights for you that are brighter, smaller and more efficient for the target task.
-----
Consistancy is good, brighter is better.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do i smell a slogan?

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Consistancy is good, brighter is better. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are these new circuits already in production or are they still protoypes? If this is the new stuff you have planned for the future i'm very excited to see what's to come.

P.S. I just got the Cyan Arc LS First Run #305. I will post sometime this week when i have the time. Right now i'm enjoying every lumen of it!!! So don't think your efforts have gone unchecked. Yer the best Peter. Keep up the GREAT work!
 

Darell

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Reading your post again (I'll probably do that once a day for a week now) I realize that as usual, you make VERY compelling arguments for semiregulation. And I do believe you've made the right choice for the highest light density in your products. I keep thinking that these decisions are purely science, yet there really is a bit of *art* going on here as well - attempting to get that perfect balance.

That post exemplifies what I love about Arc.
 

Ron Schroeder

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Peter didn't mention the other advantage of the form of regulation that the LS uses: Light intensity selection by selecting a 1.5V or a 3V pack.

This is important for me since for daily use, the 1AA pack is both convenient to carry and about the perfect brightness for the inspection that I use it for. On the weekends, I use it outdoors and either the 123 battery or more often the 2AA pack is used for the longer throw and brightness that I need then.

The Arc AAA gets used allmost every day too. I usually use batteries that had been in my pager for about 2 weeks in it which is about exactly as bright as a freshly charged Nimh.
 

Michael

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Thanks to Peter, I think I now have a better understanding of why a nimh battery should result in a slightly dimmer Arc aaa--at least at first--than an alkaline battery because of the difference in voltage. However, should not the two curves (nimh vs alkaline) on a light intensity vs time graph eventually intersect? Again the nimh battery is supposed to outperform the alkaline in high drain devices, so it may still provide brighter light for a longer period even though it doesn't start out as bright. It would be nice to see an actual comparison.
 

Lux Luthor

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael:
...should not the two curves (nimh vs alkaline) on a light intensity vs time graph eventually intersect? Again the nimh battery is supposed to outperform the alkaline in high drain devices, so it may still provide brighter light for a longer period even though it doesn't start out as bright...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not necessarily since the NiMH has a lower amount ot total energy vs. the alkaline. Also, the Arc AAA is not a high drain device. If it were, the NiMH would be brighter at the start.

With regard to the forum topic, I am happy with the output of the Arc with NiMH.
 

radellaf

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Well, I'm convinced that semi-regulated is better for the AAA Arc, since AAA alkalines aren't capable of much current output especially when drained. OTOH, I'm rather glad the Opalec NewBeam is fully regulated. The currents are OK (300-400mA at end-of-regulation voltage IIRC) for the AAs and I love getting good light out of the almost dead batteries.

Both are fine with NiMHs. It'd be nice if the Arc AAA were brighter, but that would probably hurt its ability to get the most out of an alkaline AAA.

The Opalec is so much better than the incandescent minimag, on NiMHs, that it ain't even funny.
 

lemlux

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I remain willing to risk leaky batteries by using rechargeable alkalines in each of my ARC AAAs. I top them off frequently and almost always enjoy maximum ARC AAA brightness.
 
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