ARC LS Repairs

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this_is_nascar

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Peter,

I just recieved my first 2-LS v1.2 lights which I had ordered from Glow-Bug (#277 and #770).

My fist question is how can #277 not only be a 1st, but a v1.2 first, considering I have many SLS with a higher number?

My second question involves sending units in for repair. #770 works, but only if you engage (screw-in) the compartment just right. If you turn it too much the light goes out. If you turn slightly past the point of engagement, the light goes flickers then goes out. This happens with all compartments as well as with compartments from different lights. Also, on my #277 (this is way I'm questioning whether it's a v1.2 1st or an SLS), I'm right back to the problem of the SLS where you have to pump some iron before being able to turn the 123 compartment enough to engage it. I've looked at the foam ringy thing inside and it appears to be the setup like you mentioned in one of your other posts where you compared the older setup to the newer setup.

Bottom line is that I have $280 worth of lights here that are not working properly and another 2-lights that are on the way directly from you. I certainly hope I have better luck with them.

Since I purchased #277 and #770 from Glow-Bug, do I return them back to them or to you directly to be repaired/replaced?

-Ray-
 

this_is_nascar

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Great. I'll send just the 2-heads. Thanks again, with this message thread.

Edited 07/24: Both heads were shipped back for replacement this morning. USPS Priority Mail.
 

Gransee

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Yes, send them to us directly.

The serial numbers are different for the LS and SLS. Some of the bezels where sent straight to SLS units. Also, there are large holes in the serial numbers because of the high reject rate.

This product is still quite new and rough around the edges. We have fixes for practically everything, but we are a small company and it just takes a while.

Again, we had some units that went out with the old style retainer. The total units effected was about 1 dozen. With the correct retainer, they would have been the 1.2 version. Since they did not receive the correct retainer, they are not yet the 1.2 version.

Again, we already send free retainers and o-rings to our customers for all of our lights. To request these, just send us a SASE (Self Addressed Stamped Envelope). I have posted pictures and instructions in this forum on how to order these retainers, how to swap them with the old retainer, what our testing metrics are for this new design, etc.

The "flex failure" issue is now an official problem for this version. The symptoms are the light comes on initialy but further tightening causes the light to go out. Typically, this problem shows up early and gets worse. Eventually, the unit stops working completely. The problem has two possible causes, either the pcb is being pushed away from the ground (a poor ground issue), or the pcb is being flexed by the pressure of the battery which is causing the components to delaminate from the surface.

Their is no field fix. The sealed nature of the design prevents any repair. The remedy is to replace it with a new unit.

The units are sealed to protect our circuit and to provide some water resistance. Future units will be sealed as well (and water proof).

The long term fix for the series it to use a more rigid material for the battery plane while putting strain relief in the pcb plus change the orientation of the ground in relation to the pcb so that battery pressure increases contact.

This is covered under warranty of course, as is any other future unforseen problem.

I have said it in the past and I will say it again, this product it very new. It will have bugs. I am going to add this to the website in a more visible way.

For people reading this and considering if to purchase an LS or not and if this flashlight sounds like a lot of grief and trouble to own and you have to ask yourself if you really want to own one, you are right. Do not buy one yet. Go get a X5 or CMG reactor. Although not as bright, they are certainly more established products with many units sold.

Peter Gransee
 

this_is_nascar

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Thanks Peter. As always, I appreciate your support. I'll send both units back to you with a copy of these messages, so you'll know what's going on. Should I send the heads only or the entire packages with compartments?
 

this_is_nascar

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Well, Peter. Within the past hour, I received my (2) LS-1st that I ordered directly from ARC.

#1019 seems to be working fine. The tint is definately much whiter than any of my SLS. It's actually even whiter than the two heads I just returned for replacement.

#1121 on the hand is dead. It has (or should I say had) the same flickering problem as #770. It had to be engaged just right for the light to lite. After doing that for 6 or 8 times, it just quit working. The collar on the head is also seperated a great deal the rest of the head, revieling a wide space between the top collar and the head. I'll be sending #1121 in for replacement.

I know this is a new and evolving product. I know you're learning as you go along. I know things will only get better and better, but will all due respect, 3 of my 4 LS-1st have had problems that should have been detected before they even left the factory. A simple one-time test of the lights would have raised the flag that something is wrong.

Before an LS leaves the factory does anyone in QA perform a test to ensure the light comes on the way it should?

I think my biggest surprise is that I know how particular you are with your products. That is evident because you did release a product known to us all as an SLS (ARC LS 2nd). They were supposed to be 1st that simply did not meet your standands. I applaud you for that, however I've purchased (8) SLS from you since I got into this. Every single one of them work well, with the exception of the pea-green tint. So far (and I say "so far" because I know there will be more purchases in my future) 3 of my 4 1sts have been defective to the point where the lights are not able to function.

I trust that as we ride this wave, things will only get better and better. Your products (AAA and the LS) are unbeatable at what they do. If it's not being done already, I would recommend that someone test each light before it leaves your door. Spend 1-minute to visually inspect it. Spend another 30-seconds to throw a battery in there and fire it up.

I'll be mailing #1121 back to you tomorrow for replacement.

Thanks Again,
Ray
 

Atrick-Pay

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this_is_nascar: I hate to bug you but
just wanted to ask have you tried screwing
the "collar" on to the head. Just wondered
as mine will not work if I unscrew the
collar alittle bit (I'm guessing it breaks
contect from the "-" of the battery to the LED/head). Hope that helps!
smile.gif
 

Gransee

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I inspect each one of these lights personally before they leave the door. Before I inspect them, I have my employees inspect them as well. All in all, several minutes goes into each light making sure the threads work smoothly with the default pack, die is centered with optic, tint is correct, optic is centered with housing, housing blemishes are below the accepted limit, interior is clean, etc. Of course, the light is on for most of the test. This requires me to put batteries in the pack and turn the light on.

You are welcome to come to Phoenix and tour our factory.

In spite of this, defects do leave our factory. I am very upfront about this. Everyone can see our laundry in plain view here. I tested some units, noticed the retainers where missing. I spoke to the foreman, "remember to put the retainers on these before they leave". One unit made it out without a retainer.

The loctite mysteriously stopped working. I don't test to see if the bezel is loose because the loctite is not supposed to fail. Now we check it.

Some units have a poor ground problem. I have known this for several weeks at least. I do test for this and it involves using the 2AA pack and overtightening the head several times. Not just once. I actually turn the light on several times. Last test I did was last friday. I found over a dozen that had that problem which where pulled and now they sit in the garage with all of our other rejects.

It is not suprising that this fault would be intermittant. It may also be affected by tempurature and humidity. So I test the unit a couple of time and it passes. It is shipped and travels across the country in a jet or a truck. You get it and it now has a problem. Or in your case, it may be just a loose bezel.

This LS flashlight has over 25 parts. The original design was created almost a year ago. We have made many changes since then to improve it. Most customers tell us that they see improvementes in the product.

We continue to improve the product based on input like these reports. I think the "flex failure" problem (and I have said this before) is caused by a poor ground. Either the battery is pushing the pcb away from the ground ring or the board is flexing causing component delamination. Both are fixed by the new design, which isn't here yet because we have the slowest contractors in the world. I found out this morning that our order for the new design of PCBs, after a month, they haven't even touched it. I am livid of course. So I pass it to another contractor (we switch contractors about as many times as we write stuff off and give them a second chance). Manufacturing ethics in America is really poor now days. I hired Mike to put the fear of God into our contractors and they say that he scares them, which means he's doing his job. It takes awhile though for these changes because Mike was just hired this month. If you have any advice about how to deal with contractor (stick, carrot, etc), I have probally heard it. The right way is to either take your time with the contractors and go over everthing with them real slow or do it yourself. Doing it yourself requires large capital because it involves facilities and tooling, which we don't have.

In spite of what appears to be a bleak picture, we do manage to make and ship flashlights that even after a year, still work. And this is not the exception. However, problems do occur to a smaller number. If we had problems with most of our lights, we obviously would not still be in business. As you can see for yourself, we do eventually fix these problems. Not just by replacing the units until you get a good one (actually doesn't take as long as it may feel right now), but fixing them in the design.

We also eventually succeed in our efforts. Look at the Arc-AAA. Can anyone honestly say that this is a shody or poorly made product? Can anyone say that the Arc-AAA is a problem-plauged product? It actually has a perception of being a high quality device.

The Arc-LS is a more complicated product for sure. But we have a good idea on how to make it great and we are moving in that direction at a frenzied pace.

Please don't read this explanation as an excuse. The fact is, you ordered a product, it didn't work, and you deserve a replacment or refund. But you feel better knowing a little more about our process right?

So, here we are. Please send the product back for reaplacement. I am sorry you have had so many failures. Yes, we will solve them to your satisfaction.

Peter Gransee
President
Arc Flashlight
 

this_is_nascar

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Thanks Peter and for the record, it's because of your commitment to quality and excellance that will keep me coming back (plus the product of course).

Trust me, I'm not here to bust your stones or belittle your product in anyway. I'm fustrated and you're fustrated because I'm fustrated. You promise to fix that. I trust that you will fix that. You stand by your product and reputation, as will I.

If anything, I hope the problem units that I return will help in the analysis (sounds like you might know the cause already) of finding the root-cause of the issues.

Refund? Nope. I don't want any freaking refund. I want the best product in it's class and you happen to have that product.

Thanks.
 

fasteddie

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Hey, how come Nascar gets his own dedicated customer service thread?
wink.gif
I will second all that's been said. I'm returning an amber HD that appears to have the flex defect. I WISH I could get a replacement HD instead of a refund, but they're all gone, part of gadget history now.
 

dark star

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ed_A:
I'm returning an amber HD that appears to have the flex defect<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I am also returning an amber HD that had a flickering problem and then just died - I have 6 LS's , first time I had a problem.
 

Radiant

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So is this a problem that is inevitable and is just a matter of time before it happens to any given LS or a manufacturing problem affecting a percentage of lights?
 

Gransee

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The short answer Radiant is that I do not know yet. Only time will tell with this particular problem. The trend so far with these 10 or so units has been that it showed up fairly quickly. We may find that it is an infant syndrome only and older units will be ok.

Peter
 

Radiant

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Gah, seems I missed your lengthly explanation up a few posts where you basically answered everything already!

I just got my LS last week but it has definitly exceeded my expectations and does not appear as if it could be of any higher quality. Thanks for all the information you provide us and a great light. *goes back to disassembling 223 packs to get at 123 cells to fire up in the LS*
grin.gif
 

Carpe Diem

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OK, Guys...for the record:

I have purchased for my own use (and for future use and for gifts) over 36 Arc LS kits and 90 Arc AAA`s, not to mention the ones I`ve already given away.

Every last one of them has worked like a champ!

There may be occaisional problems with the Arc flashlights as you`ve described...but that`s certainly the exception and not the rule.

Peter Gransee has forever earned a rightful place on the pedestal of the gods... because of his true committment to excellent customer service and exceptional quality control.

God bless you, Peter Gransee, and all of the kind persons in the Land of Arc!
 

Gransee

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Thanks! And you beat out Darell on most units purchased. I hear you give many away to friends and family. Very generous.

Peter Gransee
 

tygger

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i would love to be on carpe diem's gift list! wow! if i got an arc LE or especially an LS i would freak. if it was from a woman i would marry her. okay, well, maybe not but you get the picture. just think, when ARC flashlight is a household name we can all say that we were part of the process when it first started. okay, maybe we just watched the process.
grin.gif
hats off to peter for pushing forward his vision of a great quality light.
 

dark star

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And Carpe, don't forget about me, your long lost cousin in Los Angeles. It's very sad here without my Amber LS.
rolleyes.gif
 
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