Hybrid VS Diesel... cost comparisons
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Brock
Flashaholic
I subscribe to that magazine and there are sooooooo many things wrong with that article.
The biggest one that hit me is a TDI getting combined of 28? My last tank was 65, granted I might drive a bit different, but not that much! Last month on Fred's TDI forum the TDI over 60 cars averaged 44 mpg's, which includes both autos and manuals.
Getting back on topic, if you drive out on the open road get a diesel, if you do a lot of stop and go or city, go with a hybrid. The right tool for the right job…
The biggest one that hit me is a TDI getting combined of 28? My last tank was 65, granted I might drive a bit different, but not that much! Last month on Fred's TDI forum the TDI over 60 cars averaged 44 mpg's, which includes both autos and manuals.
Getting back on topic, if you drive out on the open road get a diesel, if you do a lot of stop and go or city, go with a hybrid. The right tool for the right job…
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
I read the article and thought it was slanted a bit towards the TDI. It sort of glossed over diesel shortcomings and hinted at hybrid problems that don't really exist.
I'm glad that the TDI does as well as it does. As Brock said, the right tool for the job at hand.
Daniel
I'm glad that the TDI does as well as it does. As Brock said, the right tool for the job at hand.
Daniel
LEDoutlet
Newly Enlightened
hybrid... diesel... Why not a hybrid diesel?
The article pretty much sums up what Jeremy Clarkson has been saying all along on Top Gear (Car show on TV here in the UK)
1) The most efficient diesels have better real-world economy than the most efficient hybrids.
2) You pay even more for a hybrid than a diesel.
3) 2 systems to go wrong in a hybrid, higher servicing costs.
4) Li-ion battery needs replacing after several years?
5) Heavier car.
The Hybrid benefits are:
1) Car grade diesel not as readily available worldwide
2) Car is silent at standstill
3) more tax benefits and no congestion charges in London
1) The most efficient diesels have better real-world economy than the most efficient hybrids.
2) You pay even more for a hybrid than a diesel.
3) 2 systems to go wrong in a hybrid, higher servicing costs.
4) Li-ion battery needs replacing after several years?
5) Heavier car.
The Hybrid benefits are:
1) Car grade diesel not as readily available worldwide
2) Car is silent at standstill
3) more tax benefits and no congestion charges in London
BIGIRON
Flashlight Enthusiast
Don't forget the price premium for diesel fuel. It's at $.30 a gallon here.
And I'm certainly not anti-diesel.
And I'm certainly not anti-diesel.
LowBat
Flashlight Enthusiast
You could go one step further and have a bio-diesel hybrid.LEDoutlet said:
mdocod
Flashaholic
I skimmed over it, and noticed they made their calculations on EPA estimates...
Every source I have run across that has actually tested fuel economy, has come up with higher than EPA on most diesels, and lower on most hybrids....
Every source I have run across that has actually tested fuel economy, has come up with higher than EPA on most diesels, and lower on most hybrids....
Brock
Flashaholic
I used to wonder about this when we were looking at our diesel. Now that I have one it has never been an issue. Maybe because we live in "truck" country? I am not sure but at least one of three stations up here has diesel. And for traveling, I have never seen a highway stop that didn't have diesel, not that I stop much since I can go 800+ easy on a tank.
Also in the rest of the world diesel's make up about 40% of the car made, so I would find that hard to believe "world wide".
I think we will see more and more diesel's being offered as ULSD (currently pushing up diesel cost) comes in to reality and is everywhere.
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BB
Flashlight Enthusiast
No matter how you feel about diesels--there is still the problem that few manufacturers are currently offering diesels in New York/California (like none) because of pollution issues:
-Bill
There are still lots of issues to address both diesel and hybrids (but what is new about that--or about the hundreds of millions of vehicles in the US).
-Bill
BB, those issues have already been solved in Europe, where little diesels are the norm, not the exception as here in US.
my daily driver is a cummins turbo diesel for two reasons.
1. I need a truck capable of hauling large loads.
2. there simply was not a whole lot of other choices. we've basically have jetta TDI and rabbit TDI for small diesels.
I'm routinely seeing 50 mpg claims for jetta TDI's. with fuel prices climbing yet further, jetta TDI will probably be my next vehicle for daily driver. then use cummins truck for when I need to haul a load.
I'm getting 17 in town and 22 on the road if I keep my speeds down with CTD. that sounds terrible until you realize this a 7,000+ lbs vehicle. much better than my land cruiser at 12-14mpg
my daily driver is a cummins turbo diesel for two reasons.
1. I need a truck capable of hauling large loads.
2. there simply was not a whole lot of other choices. we've basically have jetta TDI and rabbit TDI for small diesels.
I'm routinely seeing 50 mpg claims for jetta TDI's. with fuel prices climbing yet further, jetta TDI will probably be my next vehicle for daily driver. then use cummins truck for when I need to haul a load.
I'm getting 17 in town and 22 on the road if I keep my speeds down with CTD. that sounds terrible until you realize this a 7,000+ lbs vehicle. much better than my land cruiser at 12-14mpg
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Fallingwater
Flashlight Enthusiast
BB
Flashlight Enthusiast
Cy,
I don't have any problem with your diesel... I was just stating that I don't think they have solved the diesel pollution problem in Europe yet (as of 2007)... Hence the initial article posted that had European manufacturers withdrawing their diesel cars from the US market. In the past, the California pollution requirements have been much tighter than those of Europe.
I went to the EPA site:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
And could not find one diesel automobile that was sold in the North East or California. And none of the vehicles listed were anywhere near high miliage cars that everyone talks about (best was a Merc. Benz E320 at 26/35 mpg)
You can download a PDF summary of US pollution amounts/ratings over the last 40 years. And the only diesel even with a pollution rating (excluding CO2)--was rated a very low 1 of 10 (there was a re-rating of old the old smog 1-10 numbers that dropped the diesel pollution rankings by 1-3 rankings).
Some of the problems end up being there are cross connected factors... For example, an efficient engine needs to burn fuel at high temperatures and pressures (like diesel) and those are the exact conditions that generate high levels NOx pollution.
And there are other issues with road taxes for bio-fuels that erase much of the differences in prices between fossil and bio fuels.
If I am wrong--please let me know. I have driven several hundred thousand miles in our old 1985 Diesel VW Rabbit that got a good 45-50 mpg (got rid of it when I could not fix the smoking problem under load and it spun a rod bearing).
-Bill
I don't have any problem with your diesel... I was just stating that I don't think they have solved the diesel pollution problem in Europe yet (as of 2007)... Hence the initial article posted that had European manufacturers withdrawing their diesel cars from the US market. In the past, the California pollution requirements have been much tighter than those of Europe.
I went to the EPA site:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov
And could not find one diesel automobile that was sold in the North East or California. And none of the vehicles listed were anywhere near high miliage cars that everyone talks about (best was a Merc. Benz E320 at 26/35 mpg)
You can download a PDF summary of US pollution amounts/ratings over the last 40 years. And the only diesel even with a pollution rating (excluding CO2)--was rated a very low 1 of 10 (there was a re-rating of old the old smog 1-10 numbers that dropped the diesel pollution rankings by 1-3 rankings).
Some of the problems end up being there are cross connected factors... For example, an efficient engine needs to burn fuel at high temperatures and pressures (like diesel) and those are the exact conditions that generate high levels NOx pollution.
And there are other issues with road taxes for bio-fuels that erase much of the differences in prices between fossil and bio fuels.
If I am wrong--please let me know. I have driven several hundred thousand miles in our old 1985 Diesel VW Rabbit that got a good 45-50 mpg (got rid of it when I could not fix the smoking problem under load and it spun a rod bearing).
-Bill
Brock
Flashaholic
BB it all comes back to ULSD or ultra low sulfur diesel (under 30ppm of sulfur). We are the last of the "big" markets that don't have it. Well we mostly have it now. With ULSD you can put good emission equipment on the diesels and the big reason no one brought diesels over here in 2007 was because of the changing fuel in the US market. If they brought a car equipped to burn ULSD and somehow got an old tank of regular LSD (under 500ppm sulfur) it would ruin the emissions system in one tank.
Again this is very similar to what happened to gasoline when it went from leaded to unleaded. If you put leaded in a car with a catalectic converter you ruined the converter. This is the same sort of thing with the ULSD and LSD for diesel.
So importers are waiting until all the LSD is out of the North American market to bring over vehicles that can meet the standards.
This will then make the North America standard the same as the rest of the world so they can just use the same emission equipment on all the vehicles they sell rather then make some for the NA market and all the rest.
So again I think you will see a lot more diesel options in the next few years.
Again this is very similar to what happened to gasoline when it went from leaded to unleaded. If you put leaded in a car with a catalectic converter you ruined the converter. This is the same sort of thing with the ULSD and LSD for diesel.
So importers are waiting until all the LSD is out of the North American market to bring over vehicles that can meet the standards.
This will then make the North America standard the same as the rest of the world so they can just use the same emission equipment on all the vehicles they sell rather then make some for the NA market and all the rest.
So again I think you will see a lot more diesel options in the next few years.
Handlobraesing
Banned
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2006
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Driving on oil you obtained for free from restaurants is just as illegal as using home heating oil on the road. -tax evasion.
gadget_lover
Flashaholic
While this may be true, it depends on the local ordinances. Many laws are so specific that they will not cover issues that were not possible when the law was written.Handlobraesing said:
Back to the cost comparisons..... Do the Diesel pollution control devices require any change in the tuning of the diesel? I know that the Prius Hybrid could be even more fuel efficient if it was not doing so much to minimize the emissions. Even a conventional car is tuned specifically to meet emissions standards and not performance or economy.
Daniel
Brock
Flashaholic
Handlobraesing said:
Only if you don't pay tax on it, if you buy it at the pump like I do it already has tax on it. If you buy it without road tax there is a form you should fill out (I actually did last year since I bought 100 gallons of non-taxed fuel). It was still way cheaper with taxes then buying diesel or even bio-diesel at the pump.
