More on the new Arc-123 tailcap.

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GJW

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A few people have reported that the new 123 tailcap would not work with SureFire batteries.

I did some more playing before I sent mine back and found that it was more than just the battery brand that mattered.
Mine would work with brand new Toshibas and Sanyos but not with some used Toshibas and Sanyos.
Used Enerizers also wouldn't work.

It looks like a lot of the 123 batteries get dented on the negative terminal as soon as they're installed in something.
This dent looks like the determining factor in whether it will work in the new Arc tailcap.

Used batteries from my old-style Arcs where the nipple left a good sized dent definitely wouldn't work in my new Arcs.
Used Energizers out of my E2 and E2e also wouldn't work because they too had good sized dents.
The only used batteries that I could get to work in this new style Arc were those that came out of lights with springs in the ends.
Used Sanyos from my Scorpion and used Toshibas from my Arc clickie both worked.
 

Sigman

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There you go..perhaps Peter should consider a small spring in the packs? It's an easy fix for a frustrating problem. One who buys a new torch shouldn't have to go out and purchase a spring? Guess I'll be contacting Maglite for some "replacements".
 

Tomas

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Several years ago I bought a super cheap, incredibly ugly 2D flashlight at a "Dollar Store" when I needed one in a hurry to work on a friend's car in the parking lot.

That flashlight will accept any "D" batteries, and in an emergency will accept a couple of "C" batteries. Yes, the somewhat soft and flexible translucent orange plastic body scars incredibly easily, but the beast is waterproof and reliable in far more difficult situations than I have ever subjected another flashlight to.

It has beat around in a toolbox, in the trunk of a car, under car seats, on a boat, in a camping trailer, and in a light plane. So long as the bulb was good and the batteries held power it never failed to work.

It cost $0.99 plus tax.

Quite honestly I would expect the first criteria of any flashlight would be to work without having to change the real world to match it's finicky requirements.

I would certainly expect a flashlight costing 120 times the cost of that old orange junker to work with any commercial battery that came close to meeting specs.

I understand that some newer, more high-tech flashlights are essentially "beta test" units, and because of that may not have all the wrinkles ironed out. That's fine. Here is another wrinkle to iron.
wink.gif


Oh, I'm sometimes asked who made that old orange Tupperwear-like flashlight. Very simply, I don't know. All it says is "Taiwan" under the grease, grime and scars.

It still works fine.

tomsig01.gif
 

radellaf

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Yep, all the HA aluminum in the world doesn't mean much if the battery contacts aren't rock solid.
 

MicroE

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My LS first has a nasty habit of destroying 123 batteries.
When you turn on an LS by screwing the threads together you are exerting a compression force on the terminals of the battery. This has caused more than one of my Duracell 123's to fail due to a cracked seal on the positive terminal.
IMHO a compression spring of some kind is necessary in the LS.---Marc
 

PeterM

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An engineering quiz for ya. The LS is definitely a battery crusher and needs a spring. Problem is finding a spring that is not too tall or stiff; but stiff enough, and tough. Years ago, I remember working with a spring that, instead of being a coil of wire, was essentially a metal disc with a concave/convex surface. Dropped into the bottom of an ARC LS battery holder with the convex surface up, it would fit loosely. It would get a little larger in diameter upon compression, but only slightly given the amount of "spring" required for this application. These springs are different in that they compress much further in relation to their "uncompressed" height than do the coil type springs. After all, we're talking very small distances here.
Does anyone know the kind of springs I'm referring to. I'm having an elder moment. Seems like the name starts with a "B".
 

monanza

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I must admit I was surprised when I opened my ARC SLS and did not find a spring loaded contact in the head unit. The compression stresses on these batteries are significant without such protection (not to mention the sress on the PCB and electronics).

Recall that the driving circuit does not provide steady output but rather a modulated current output. This results in cyclical thermal stresses which when added to the compression stress will eventually lead to circuit failures (obviously I have not done any thermal or stress analysis but such is warranted).

I would speculate that at least three items need to be addressed in regards to electrical contacts:

1. Provide a battery jacket to ensure batteries are more or less centered in the battery pack (to solve the problem with the plastic covering on the -ve terminal).
2. Provide a spring loaded head unit (+ve terminal) contact. Alternatively one could provide a spring at the -ve end but the high current loads argue against such a feable terminal (also the battery would maintain contact with the head unit throughout the spring's length).
3. Do not rely on aluminum for good electrical contact because an oxide layer will eventually form (bad conductor). Sure, as you cycle the light and batteries any oxide layer may tend to be scuffed away but that is only true if you torque those batteries! The constant current driver will take care of the voltage drops but the batteries will tend to expire sooner. EDIT: It seems some Arc SLSs were not chemkoted when they were remilled. Apparently chemkote improves corrosion resistance and electrical contact.

Of course I would love a (tactical) switch which may incidentally solve all the electrical contact issues. The 123 pack is kinda short for a tactical switch though.

Cheers...
 

Tomas

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Originally posted by PeterM:
. . . Does anyone know the kind of springs I'm referring to. I'm having an elder moment. Seems like the name starts with a "B".
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure - it has been too many years. Could you possibly be thinking of conical disc springs or something like "wave washers?"

I just received an Arc Second LS (First Run #1495) that I ordered for the $50 price from Arc, and I can see the eventual mechanical problems even though this particular light is working fine with what it has been fed so far (Energizer e2 lithium).

I agree that some sort of compressible device needs to be included to not only provide more reliable contact, but to protect the light and the battery from the excessive stress loads that currently happen when the light is turned on.

tomsig01.gif


Reference: http://www.wclco.com/pdf-sw.htm
 

Floating Spots

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Are we talking Belleville Washers (and/or springs)? Here are some different washer/spring types.

Belleville
High loads, low deflections.

Slotted
Higher deflections than Belleville.

Finger
For axial bearing loads.

Wave
Light loads, low deflection.

Curved
Absorbs axial end play.
 

PeterM

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Yes, Belleville springs are what I was, (trying to), thinking of. But, come to think of it, we were using pretty high loads, so a Wave spring might be the ticket. Anyone think that that would work?
 

McGizmo

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A simple captive short stroke conical spring in the tail with an easily compressed foam retainer in the existing position for anti-rattle would take care of the problem. If the head to tube had a mechanical stop designed into the thread mate so that you couldn't screw past the compression range of the spring, this would avoid crushing batteries when either they were dead or ther was some other fault in the circuit. ( limit the screw until it lights syndrome). This "limit" could also be a mechanical contact for the ground path that might be more dependable than the existing path through the threads. Just MHO.

- Don

BTW, the springs mentioned are really cool but some of the materials used aren't ideal as electrical conducters. How about a nitinol spring that would contract and open the circuit if it got too hot? Oh, sorry............
tongue.gif
 

Christoph

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Why do so many people have problems with crushing batteries don't they have any feel for tightness? I have never had a battery get crushed. I just turn it on until it comes on. When ever you over torque anything there are problems. Don't over tighten things. Now dropping the light would dent the battery but I do my best to try and hold onto things. I use my ARC every day in my job (electrician)and am very satisfied with it. The 500ma is my favorite at the moment consistent brightness throughout the battery life, battery life is not an issue with me brightness is can't wait for the 5 watt.
Chris
 

Sean

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Originally posted by Christoph:
Why do so many people have problems with crushing batteries don't they have any feel for tightness? I have never had a battery get crushed. I just turn it on until it comes on. When ever you over torque anything there are problems. Don't over tighten things. Now dropping the light would dent the battery but I do my best to try and hold onto things. I use my ARC every day in my job (electrician)and am very satisfied with it. The 500ma is my favorite at the moment consistent brightness throughout the battery life, battery life is not an issue with me brightness is can't wait for the 5 watt.
Chris
<font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, My first Arc LS dented my rechargeable AA's after only a few uses, I made sure not to turn it any further than necessary. It still dented them to the point the light would no longer work.

I think the problem was (and still is, but to a lesser degree) that the top of the battery would make contact with a black foam ring around the + contact point (The foam ring keeps the batteries from rattling). When you turn the light on, you must twist the head enough to compress this foam ring so the batteries will make contact. That alone was enough pressure to dent the - end of my batteries. After a week or so, they were so dented they were not long enough to work.

The new LS's use thinner foam rings and this is less of a problem, but it still can happen.
 

snakebite

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my 2 sls will dent aa cells(nimh)only if i drop them.but though i have not seen leakage with the 123 pack there is a strong chemical odor when opening it.leakage or a byproduct of discharge?
 

Gransee

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I believe a spring is neccessary. I also feel that if we use a spring, there must also be a switch.

Just having a spring by itself would introduce other problems. I talked about this a couple of months ago (maybe not to the CPF, but I have mentioned this subject many times). The problem is that you now have a variable battery suspended between two elastic materials. When we built prototypes, it was tricky to get the elasticity just right. And then when you used a different brand of battery, the variables would change again. Over time, the materials also change somewhat which affects the allignment. Another variable was where the spring/retainer touched the cell because different brands have different contact topologies.

I have yet to see an actual working example of a flashlight with just springs and no switch. When I mean switch, I mean some other means to interupt the power other than the closure of the spring against the cell.

I continue to feel that the TSP should be the default pack.

Fact is, most flashlights involve some sort of spring to manage the battery. And where there is a spring, there is usally some sort of switch.

Even with the TSP, the Arc-LS is still smaller than any light with this level of brightness, incandescent or LED. And for the weight conscious, the P-123 pack is also available.

Peter Gransee
 

Alan

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TSP is great. The issue is the choice of switch you pick. No offense, I might not be expecting quality and look comparable with SF, the quality and look from the first-time-designed X5T just stunned me.

Alan
 
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