DMM CAPTURE MEASURE AMP PEAK??

jimjones3630

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Hi,

Which DMM is capible of measuring and storing or holding the peak amp draw of a bulb?

Looking for inexpensive and accurate which I hope are not mutally exclusive.

Jim
 

CM

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I think you'd need an oscilloscope to capture the peak. I'm assuming you're looking for the turn-on peak transient which would be too fast for most meters.
 

HCaul

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You already asked this question in another thread, where I (and others) answered you. "Peak" is meaningless without knowing how long a peak you are interested in. The right tool for the job in general is a storage oscilloscope and a current shunt, although some multimeters may be able to give you peaks of some minimum duration. You can also use fuses of particular sizes in a pinch.

https://www.candlepowerforums.com/threads/163855

H. Caul
 
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jimjones3630

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Thanks for the link back to that tread, after I asked I realized was off topic and lost track of that thread.

What I want to measure is the turn on amps of halogen bulbs and I don't understand how using fuses (Use fuses of the repsonse time you care about). It's probable something very simple but I don't get it.

So is the easy way to do it with a oscilloscopy? Put the oscilloscopy in line between power source and one of the bulbs leads?

Thanks Jim
 

jimjones3630

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LuxLuthor

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I'm sure it is not as accurate as a scope, but I doubt you need that level of accuracy. It does measure current up to 100A which is pretty nice. No more blown fuses for me. It is sold at all the RC stores, and even at Amazon now. Has received glowing reviews everywhere I read about it.

As a sidebar: Testing my 19.2V DeathBlaster setup is what led to my buying a Fluke 179 (from a wonderful CPF member), and also this Watts Up. I saw it as a better solution than a DMM, after blowing the 10A fuse in the Triplett I just bought, and not being able to find a replacement fuse anywhere in the world for it. Luckily I blew the fuse in the first week and returned it for full refund from Amazon seller Parts Express.
 

Norm

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Lots of multimeters have peak hold and low hold functions, were it is possible to hold a reading. Say for instance you wanted to see how low your car battery drops when starting the car, all you need to do is put the meter across the battery terminals start the car and then check the reading. see here for one example http://www.mytoolstore.com/ideal/idendx03.html
Norm
 

LuxLuthor

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I think the concern is if there may be a higher current to protect against blowing your fuse, as in the example I just gave. I don't know what the peak amp really was, and if it might even be high enough to blow my new Fluke 179 11A fuse. I don't know if the shunt technique allows the same peak current interpretation? This Watts Up is just another "toy" to consider.
 

jimjones3630

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I reread the thread Hcaul noted and seems the O scope with storage and auto triger is most accurate at any amount of time and would not miss the peak draw of the start up on time of halogens. If using some other means to measure start up amps how would you know if its sampling is over the entire start up time frame and didn't miss the peak?

http://www.valuetronics.com/vt/assets/pdfs/HP_1740A_1741A.PDF

Using a fuse to measure peak amps one could wire in line a fuse holder with fuses of one amp difference, 10amp then a 9 amp if there is such till it blows a fuse then you know.

Jim
 
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A lot of DMMs can hold the maximum/minimum value, but minimum time required to latch the reading vary from model to model and the "peak value" reported is affected by this.

Using any Fluke 87 series as an example, it can hold a maximum lasting at least 0.1second "using min/max" or 0.001 second single event peak using "peak mode"


The peak minimum duration threshold for the "Watts Up" device is not given, so it's up in the air.

You want accurate and inexpensive(what do you consider as such?)
Try looking for Fluke 87 (the original from the 80s) second hand on eBay.
 

LuxLuthor

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Handlobraesing said:
The peak minimum duration threshold for the "Watts Up" device is not given, so it's up in the air.

I was reading about it on the RC Groups forum, and saw this post #9. You can see it averages the 1ms samples over 0.4s, so I don't know how fast these surge spikes are...but this has limitations.

Yes, there is a sample-and-hold (s/h). A sample is collected by the s/h every millisecond so the sample rate is 1000 samples/sec.
Every 400 mS (0.4 S) the display on the "Watt's Up" is updated with the average of the last 400 samples and with the peak Amps and minimum Volts captured.

A spike that occurs during a single sample (1 mS) will be captured and used for the Peak Current and Minimum Voltage. Unless the spike lasts the entire sample time, it may not be reported accurately (as it is averaged over the 1mS sample). So the simple answer is that a spike must last at least 1 mS to be accurately captured, but see the next paragraph.

A caveat all s/h circuits have is that if the signal situation is changing very rapidly the s/h value may understate the change from the prior sample. For example, if the current goes from 0 to 100 Amps for 1 mS and back to 0 Amps over a 3 mS interval, the "Watt's Up" may show a peak value less than 100 Amps. However, that's an unlikely scenerio in RC model applications.
 

HCaul

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The peak inrush current of many kinds of circuits, including (especially) many kinds of light bulbs, motors, and various electrionic components, can be very, very high -- limited only by the power source itself -- although usually for only a short time. Certain kinds of household light bulbs, for example, have a resistance of little more than zero ohms when current first flows through them. As they begin to heat up, the resistance increases, eventually reaching over a hundred Ohms. For the first instants (and depending on the moment in the cycle when the power is applied) hundreds of Amps may flow through (limited only by the capability of the power company and the resistance of the wires between the bulb and the generator), then tens, and eventually, only about one (its steady state). Is the peak the hundreds of Amps that flow at the first instant? Well, yes, and no. A very large current flows, but for such a short time that it doesn't consume enough energy to do any damage or have any real effect. We usually care only about a surge that lasts long enough to have some impact, such as blowing a fuse or starting a fire.

So the "peak" isn't a really single number, it's a curve. With a suitable storage oscilloscope of sufficient bandwidth (trigger time and, in the case of digital scopes, sampling rate) and a shunt, you can look at the curve directly.

If you don't have access to, or want to use, a 'scope, there are two issues here. The first is how long must current flow in order to meaningfully count as a "peak" for your purposes. That is, why do you want to measure the surge load in the first place? Usually one wants to avoid exceeding the current rating of the power supply or the wiring, or at least avoid blowing fuses, but you may have some other reason. The second issure is how to measure peaks of the duration you care about.

Some digital multimeters have a "fast" peak capture mode. The Fluke 189 (an expensive handheld DMM) can capture peaks of 1/4 of a millisecond (250µs) or longer, which is about as fast as handheld DMMs get. Less elaborate DMMs with such a feature may need a bit longer, perhaps 1 millisecond. If you need to reliably capture shorter peaks than that, you really need to use a scope. But a 250µs sample is better than the response time of a typical fast fuse and short enough that any shorter than that isn't likely to do much damage.

Another approach, if all you want to do is avoid exceeding the capacity of a fused circuit, is to simply ask the fuses directly. Substitute sucessively smaller fuses (of the same type -- fuses are rated not only for current, but also for minimum and maximum guaranteed response time and maximum voltage) until they start to blow on startup. The current rating of the smallest fuse that doesn't blow gives you the approximate peak load for exactly the purposes you're measuring.

H. Caul
 
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LuxLuthor said:
I think the concern is if there may be a higher current to protect against blowing your fuse, as in the example I just gave. I don't know what the peak amp really was, and if it might even be high enough to blow my new Fluke 179 11A fuse. I don't know if the shunt technique allows the same peak current interpretation? This Watts Up is just another "toy" to consider.

The fuse is a DMM-B-11 by Bussmann. I'm not even sure why it's called an 11A since the fusing characteristic is similar to a 15A fuse than a 10. Fluke spec says the meter can handle 20A for one minute. An ordinary 10A fuse can't take 200% overload too long. This one can.

I really don't think you can blow the 11A fuse in the Fluke in an ordinary flashlight application short of direct short across the battery. The fuse will handle:

50A for 5 seconds
100A for 0.1 seconds


Reference:
http://www.bussmann.com/library/bifs/1047.PDF

You can substitute the DMM-B-11A fuse with a much cheaper BAF-15 (that behaves

On older Flukes, 15A fuse was used instead of 11A. The 15A type is this:
http://www.bussmann.com/pdf/1011.pdf

The 10A from that series is extremely different from the 11A DMM-B and at 20A, it blows in 10 seconds while the DMM-B-11 can handle it for much longer.

You can substitute the 11A(which acts more like 15A per graph) 1000v AC/DC fuse with a much cheaper 15A (which acts more) 125v BAF-15 if you'll only use the DMM around the house, which has enough interruption capacity for household 120v and batteries.

The only benefit the 1,000v 20,000A IR fuse offer you is when you accidentally short across a much higher energy circuit (600v service entrace for example)
 
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winny

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A peak hold DMM would do it. If you only need a rough estimate, chances are high that your bulb pulls about 10-12 times more current during the inrush than its rated current.
 

jimjones3630

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Price wise even a fluke 87 cost more than older storage O scopes of 100mhz bandwidth with trigger time event mode.

So my question is for the purpose of measuring the inrush of start up amps. on bulbs is 100mhz sufficient in a 2 channel scope with storage capibility and trigger event mode?

Used scopes that start up pulled from working environment, popular seller discription,
would they be likey calibrated or accurate enough for that purpose?

Fluke 87 from the 80's would be 87 III?

Jim
 
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HCaul

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jimjones3630 said:
Price wise even a fluke 87 cost more than older storage O scopes of 100mhz bandwidth with trigger time event mode.

So my question is for the purpose of measuring the inrush of start up amps. on bulbs is 100mhz sufficient in a 2 channel scope with storage capibility and trigger event mode?

Used scopes that start up pulled from working environment, popular seller discription,
would they be likey calibrated or accurate enough for that purpose?

Fluke 87 from the 80's would be 87 III?

Jim

A fluke 87 from the 80's would be just the 87, no roman numerals.

When you say "accurate enough for that purpose" you haven't told us what that purpose is. Why do you want to measure inrush current? To figure out if you're comfortably within the capacity of a power source? Almost certainly yes. A working but out-of-calibration scope is likely very accurate for this purpose, although you also have to consider the accuracy of your shunt resistor. To calculate the exact energy released to confirm the results of your cold fusion experimenets for your Phys.Rev.L. paper? Almost certainly no.

Keep in mind that high precision and high accuracy aren't required for the vast majority of practical electronics work. A handheld DMM like a Fluke 87 gives you reasonably high precision but mostly safety around high energy circuits, portability, convenience, and ease of use. An oscilloscope gives you an enormous amount of generality, at some expense of convenience and ease of use/interpretation (you have to understand far more about what you're doing to take advantage of the flexibility), and considerably less safety around high energy circuits (except for specialized scopes engineered for power analysis).

H. Caul
 
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jimjones3630

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I stated my purpose "So my question is for the purpose of measuring the inrush of start up amps. on bulbs"

I'll try to clarify I want to measure the inrush of amps during the turning on of halogen bulbs. I want to measure that amperage during that initial timeframe whatever it is. HID take many seconds to build up to full on current. Halogens have a shorter timeframe. Probably ms's. During that time frame that is the purpose to know that amperage.

What I do with that knowledge could be several things but that is the first goal not the final goal.

So, I don't know what else I would use a O scope for nor how to set it up for measuring that inrush during start up. While the scope has more capibilites maybe I just need to speed more on a Fluke for the convience of use.

Winny mentioned that peak is about 10-12 x the rated current.
 
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HCaul

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jimjones3630 said:
I stated my purpose "So my question is for the purpose of measuring the inrush of start up amps. on bulbs"

I'll try to clarify I want to measure the inrush of amps during the turning on of halogen bulbs. I want to measure that amperage during that initial timeframe whatever it is. HID take many seconds to build up to full on current. Halogens have a shorter timeframe. Probably ms's. During that time frame that is the purpose to know that amperage.

Winny mentioned that peak is about 10-12 x the rated current.

No, you haven't said what your purpose is. I'm not trying to give you a hard time. I'm actually trying to help you. I understand that you want to measure the inrush current. But what you haven't told us is what you're going to use that measurement for. How can anyone offer an opinion as to whether some measurement arrangement gives sufficient accuracy without knowing what the measurement will be used for?

So let me try one last time, at the risk of offending you futher than I apparently already have. WHY DO YOU WANT TO KNOW THE INRUSH CURRENT? I'm not asking because I'm nosy. I'm asking because whether something is sufficient depends on the anwer to that question.

H. Caul
 
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