lumens factory comparison confusion

Mikeg23 · May 13, 2007

A while back I purchased a 3.7V bulb from AW and ran it with an AW18650 in a Surefire 6P. I liked it real well and when it burned out I replaced it with a Lumens Factory
HO-4. The AW bulb and Lumens factory bulb seem pretty compareable in brightness both are just slightly brighter than the P60 that they replaced.

Any way I bought a Lumens factory EO-E1R and run it on an AW17670 and it is brighter than the HO-4. So the EO-E1R has a better run time and it's brighter, which doesn't make any sense to me.

Am I the only on who has experienced this?

winny · May 13, 2007

Although I have no idea about the bulbs in particular you talk about, but keep in mind that all bulbs are not the same. You can always make a bulb better, the problem is price. Was the good one more expensive?

Outdoors Fanatic · May 13, 2007

Mikeg23 said:
A while back I purchased a 3.7V bulb from AW and ran it with an AW18650 in a Surefire 6P. I liked it real well and when it burned out I replaced it with a Lumens Factory
HO-4. The AW bulb and Lumens factory bulb seem pretty compareable in brightness both are just slightly brighter than the P60 that they replaced.

Any way I bought a Lumens factory EO-E1R and run it on an AW17670 and it is brighter than the HO-4. So the EO-E1R has a better run time and it's brighter, which doesn't make any sense to me.

Am I the only on who has experienced this?

IF you want a brighter bulb, you should get the E0-4 instead the HO-4. But I agree, the EO-E1 is really an impressive little bulb. But this one isn1t compatible with the P60, so I'm not sure how were you using this bulb as a HO-4 replacement.

ampdude · May 13, 2007

I liked the EO-E1Rs. I went to the EO-E2R's so that I could carry spare rechargeables and make use of an SC3 spares carrier I had. The difference in brightness between the two bulbs is noticeable. It's not HUGE, but it is there. Maybe 30-50 or such extra lumens like the numbers suggest.

cernobila · May 13, 2007

Mikeg23,

I am not sure how you made the comparison.....these lamps are for 3.7V use.

HO-4 (150 L) and EO-4 (190 L) only fit D26 heads such as the G2 and 6P etc.

HO-E1R (50 L) and EO-E1R (90 L) only fit the D19 heads such as the E1E and E2E

Lumens Factory data

mdocod · May 14, 2007

i really doubt the EO-E1R is brighter. Something is wrong. Either the 18650 driving the HO-4 is not charged up to the same state, or there is a connection problem in the flashlight causing a major drop in voltage at the bulb. Or you aren't taking into account differences in beam profile for the brightness comparison.

Norm · May 14, 2007

I received 2 EO-4's in the post today I have 1 in my 18650 bored C2 centurion and the other in a Falcata running a 17670 battery both nice and bright very pleased with the EO-4's.
Norm

Mikeg23 · May 14, 2007

Sorry for the confusion I run the HO-4 with an 18650 in a Surefire 6P and I run the EO-E1R in an E2E with a 17670.

I had considered that maybe my 6P had some resistance some where so I popped the HO-4 in my G2 with a 17670 and it was the same actually a little dimmer, but I figure the 18650 drives it better than the 17670.

The HO-4 has more throw, but the EO-E1R is much whiter and seems to be brighter.

In comparison to a P60 on fresh batteries:
the HO-4 on an 18650 is a little brighter
the HO-4 on a 17670 is about the same
my EO-E1R on a 17670 is brighter

It just isn't making much sense to me, but I am also confused by the MN03 being whiter with a longer run time than a P60.

Mikeg23 · May 14, 2007

Outdoors Fanatic said:
IF you want a brighter bulb, you should get the E0-4 instead the HO-4. But I agree, the EO-E1 is really an impressive little bulb. But this one isn1t compatible with the P60, so I'm not sure how were you using this bulb as a HO-4 replacement.

I'm not looking for a brighter light all I want is an incandescent light with a one hour run time and both of these lights achieve that. It's just something that has me wondering.
Maybe the one isn't brighter than the other it just seems like it, but either way I am happy.

jumpstat · May 14, 2007

Are both the LF HO-4/EO-4 having the same beam patern? If not which has throw and which has bright side spill? TIA. Thinking of putting it in SF M2

Gordov2 · May 14, 2007

I put the HO9 in my Surefire C2, with AW's 123R 3.7 cells. This has amazing output!! It is just as bright (or brighter to my eye), as my Surefire M3 with 225 lumen bulb! The throw is a little less than the M3, but it IS just as bright to the naked eye as the M3.

ampdude · May 14, 2007

Gordov2 said:
I put the HO9 in my Surefire C2, with AW's 123R 3.7 cells. This has amazing output!! It is just as bright (or brighter to my eye), as my Surefire M3 with 225 lumen bulb! The throw is a little less than the M3, but it IS just as bright to the naked eye as the M3.

I have to disagree. I have the MN11 (225 lumen) in my M3 and HO-9 in my C3 with two 17500's and it's not even close, the Surefire M3 225 lumen assembly is way brighter, especially on 2 X 17670 lithium ions. It's about twice as bright. I have compared them side by side many times.

Gordov2 · May 14, 2007

Mikeg23 said:
A while back I purchased a 3.7V bulb from AW and ran it with an AW18650 in a Surefire 6P. I liked it real well and when it burned out I replaced it with a Lumens Factory
HO-4. The AW bulb and Lumens factory bulb seem pretty compareable in brightness both are just slightly brighter than the P60 that they replaced.

Any way I bought a Lumens factory EO-E1R and run it on an AW17670 and it is brighter than the HO-4. So the EO-E1R has a better run time and it's brighter, which doesn't make any sense to me.

Am I the only on who has experienced this?

Are you running the EO-E1R and the HO-4 on the same cell? If so, and the EO-E1R is brighter, you might want to ask AW himself. He should have an answer. He's a good guy and very smat about this stuff.

Gordov2 · May 14, 2007

ampdude said:
I have to disagree. I have the MN11 (225 lumen) in my M3 and HO-9 in my C3 with two 17500's and it's not even close, the Surefire M3 225 lumen assembly is way brighter, especially on 2 X 17670 lithium ions. It's about twice as bright. I have compared them side by side many times.

Mine is a C2 with two AW 3.7 volt 123R's. Not a C3. Maybe that's why. As I mentioned, the SF M3 will definitely out throw it. But my M3 does not seem as bright up close. If I shine both lights on the wall at 12 inches, it is impossible to even look at the spot on the wall of the C2 with the HO9 bulb. With the M3 and 225-lumen MN11 bulb, you can look at the spot on the wall a bit easier. This says to me that my C2 is brighter, but the throw on the M3 is better with a bigger/wider beam, which at distance, could make it seem brighter overall. As an example, when outside at night, the M3 does definitely out throw the C2, with a much wider beam, making it seem brighter at 30 yards. The C2 however, is not as wide at that same distance and does not appear as bright.

Also, in a very non-technical test, if I hold both lights pointed at my arm at 3-6 inches, the C2 burns much hotter (and again is impossible to look at) than the M3. I realize this is not necessarily a measurement of brightness, but none-the-less, does say something about the difference in the two.

ampdude · May 14, 2007

The MN10 on li-ions is around the same territory as the HO-9. Sorry, but I just don't see it. Are you sure you're not mistaking the MN10 for the MN11? The MN11 on lithium ions is close to the ROP LE-High in output.

Gordov2 · May 14, 2007

ampdude said:
The MN10 on li-ions is around the same territory as the HO-9. Sorry, but I just don't see it. Are you sure you're not mistaking the MN10 for the MN11? The MN11 on lithium ions is close to the ROP LE-High in output.

Yeah, it's definitely the MN11... maybe it's just my eyes, as I do not have any way to make this judgment on empirical data. However, I will double check this evening.

mdocod · May 14, 2007

Gordov2 said:
I put the HO9 in my Surefire C2, with AW's 123R 3.7 cells. This has amazing output!! It is just as bright (or brighter to my eye), as my Surefire M3 with 225 lumen bulb! The throw is a little less than the M3, but it IS just as bright to the naked eye as the M3.

The HO-9 is actually underdriven on a pair of RCR123s to about 175 torch lumens, The MN11 (I'm assuming you're on primaries?) Is somewhere around 250-75 torch lumens by comparison. On Li-Ion it runs well over 300. The HO-9 seems brighter because your mind is playing games with you. "bigger number = better" combined with "smaller size per lumen for the C2" and you are likely to draw an inaccurate conclusion. It's like watts or megapixels, 2 very unimportant factors for stereo systems and digital cameras (respectively) and yet, those are the numbers our minds have been trained by the industry to give a darn about. The result is that all they have to do is make the number on the box bigger to make you feel like the one you got isn't as good as the one available, when in reality, it may be better.

Gordov2 · May 14, 2007

mdocod said:
The HO-9 is actually underdriven on a pair of RCR123s to about 175 torch lumens, The MN11 (I'm assuming you're on primaries?) Is somewhere around 250-75 torch lumens by comparison. On Li-Ion it runs well over 300. The HO-9 seems brighter because your mind is playing games with you. "bigger number = better" combined with "smaller size per lumen for the C2" and you are likely to draw an inaccurate conclusion. It's like watts or megapixels, 2 very unimportant factors for stereo systems and digital cameras (respectively) and yet, those are the numbers our minds have been trained by the industry to give a darn about. The result is that all they have to do is make the number on the box bigger to make you feel like the one you got isn't as good as the one available, when in reality, it may be better.

mdocod-

I am very aware of the preconscious marketing aspects of upping the numbers. Whether it is lumens or anything else (my profession is marketing). That being said, maybe my perception at close range is the issue. As previously mentioned, when pointing both lights at the wall at 12 inches, it's simply impossible to look at the spot of the C2 for more than a couple seconds. Whereas the M3 is possible... though not a very scientific test, I know what my eyes are telling me and I know what a few folks I've shown both lights to have told me. Those folks by the way know nothing about flashlights or lumens and they have all said, "that smaller one is brighter."

So I guess it's perception: Based in reality, or otherwise, the C2 "seems" brighter under the conditions described. I wish I had the equipment to test empirically.

I'll put brand spanking new primary cells in the M3 tonight. Maybe that's where this issue exists, as the current cells have been used a tad.

mdocod · May 14, 2007

may just go to show how poor performing someCR123s are in comparison to li-ion.

Gordov2 · May 14, 2007

Good point.

lumens factory comparison confusion

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